Deity Gliese #5, Willem Van Oranje

Dirk: Well Hannibal was annoyed with me when he first entered WHEOOHRN. But it turned out it was Wang he was after. As for Darius he's still in WHEOOHRN (been there for ages). He might be after me but H was his worst enemy I think when it started.
Yes but Han might have been too strong for Darius even then.
 
Round 5, 940 AD - 1400 AD (43 turns):

940: As suggested, I switched production from universities to settlers and units in order to colonize the island just to the north before it was too late.
I also traded with Hannibal to gain diplo with him. He was the worst enemy of Gandhi and the taoist block though so it cost me some diplo points there. In anticipation of this I opened borders with the taoists before doing the tech trade so that I could start trading with them the next turn after getting astro from lib, even if they got annoyed (which would prevent signing OB agreement).

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960: Lib -> Astro -> PP. I was hoping to get something else than Astronomy to trade around since Hannibal was in WHEOOHRN and I didn't know if he was after me, I didn't want to enable an invasion prematurely.
Han asks me to cancel agreements with Gandhi and I agree. I was going to do it this turn anyhow since Astro now meant that I wasn't dependant on Gandhi for foreign trade. Gandhi didn't seem to mind though and I got no demerit for agreeing to Han's request. I think no other leader would be ok with it.
I upgrade my homefront galley to an east indiaman @ 110 gold. That's pricey but I want to colonize the island asap.

980: PP -> Economics. I trade with Pacal for PP since he's now got it and then start on Economics in the unlikely event that I'll get there first since noone has it yet. Also free market will help both my heavily trade-route based economy and to improve relations with Hannibal.
Darius asks me to give him Astronomy and I refuse, putting him at annoyed. Well since he's already in WHEOOHRN it doesn't matter right now.
Muslim shrine BIDL (Gandhi).
Both Pacal and Churchill got PP this round so before trading I checked the wfyabta table, click here.

The list for my game:

Pacal: 5
Hannibal, Darius, WK: 10
Churchill, Gandhi: 15

Overall very good tech trade possibilities this game. Following the list I traded with Pacal first.

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This put me in a decent position.

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1010: My caravel had explored all of the island and it turned out to be quite juicy indeed. My first wave is on its way in this picture with a second wave being prepared in my best production cities.

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1020: Churchill beats me with a few turns to Economic, not that I really expected to get there first with 4 of the AIs having all prereqs.

1040: Economics -> Gunpowder. I picked Gunpowder here to get a military tech, it's needed pretty soon in any case going forward so I might as well get it early when there's 2 civs in WHEOOHRN (Hannibal and Darius) with unknown targets.

I revolt to FM+FR.

Meanwhile at the island.. curses! :mad: Gandhi beats me to the spot that I aimed for with 2 turns. I could have put a city where my longbow landed instead had I been just 1 turn earlier. The speed boost from the circumnav bonus helped but not enough. In fact, I delayed switching from universities to units by exactly one turn, a small mistake with big repercussions.
By the way, ignore these placeholder techs like sci meth and theology, I just click randomly when I'm asked to select tech and don't always remember or have time to make a real choice before taking pics.

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Hannibal had gotten Replaceable Parts and I negotiated another deal. A bit lopsided again as you can see, I was doing my best to make nice in the process and hoped to get Hannibal out of the mutually maleficial mercantilism he was running and into free market for trade and shared favourite civic.

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1050: GS born in Amsterdam, with no immediate goal I decide to hold on to him for a little while.
Darius demands horses and I agree, putting him back at cautious, still at WHEOOHRN though.

My settler moved to claim the closest of my planned slots and it turned out to be just in time as Pacal had a Galleon just off the coast to the west. The barb hut you see on the east coast contained hostile villagers.

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1070: Versailles BIDL (Gandhi).

1080: Gunpowder -> Rifling. I once again opted for maximum defense from possible dows and by now was pretty sure about going a military route and probably invading the backwards taoist block at some point after exhausting my other expansion alternatives.
With the 2nd wave of settler+units ready for emigration my main production cities in the frozen south had lots of tasks to work on. My other cities had slowly continued their university builds and was getting close to completion. I needed to finish off this task in my best cities as well as provide additional units for capturing the island barb city, put up additional infrastructure off all kinds and possibly fend off an imminent invasion. There was also a good number of techs needed in the near future. With all this in mind, I decided to use my saved GS for my first golden age to help out a little.

1090: My second settler arrives on the island. Luckily Pacal didn't send a settler here, either he hadn't explored this area or his galleon didn't contain the necessary unit. The island was now fully blocked from further expansion and the only contest left for the colonial powers was the barb city of Gepid, my capital's first task during the GA was to build knights (the best available unit) to capture it.

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1110: My caravel continued exploring the seas and came upon yet another island, or rather as it turned out, a group of islands.

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1120: War! But not for me luckily. :) Hannibal dows Wang and immediately asks me to join in, a request I prudently refuse. Hannibal's vassal Pacal has little choice in the matter though.
I decide that my trade with Korea must come to an end and I close borders and discontinue our resource exchange.
Gandhi is no longer on anyone's hitlist but unfortunately he refuses to speak to me (since I aborted trade earlier).

1140: Gandhi adopts FS & FR. Probably not good all things considered since this will make him more likeable to his fellow civs.

1160: Rifling -> Sci Meth. I put a turn into SM to trade for it.

1170: Sci Meth -> Chemistry. Another important military tech.
Hannibal was proving most reluctant to switch out of Mercantilism so I decided I might as well give him some encouragement. Sci Meth reveals two sources of oil in my home territory, one directly beneath The Hague on the island just east of Amsterdam.

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Pacal also fancied rifling.

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1190: My caravel mapped out the far northern islands more closely. Pacal had put a city on the leftmost one-tile island already, claiming copper and 3 sea resources. I'm the king of these type of islands though with my UB but at least the copper gives Pacal some production there (he's not running slavery). Apparently this encouraged him enough to decide to break with Hannibal, once again becoming a free state.

With the new land I was once again in need of settlers but the units sent to Gepid would come in handy, some lucky rolls ensured that all of them survived to become veterans that could be sent to capture Saxon. I also captured a worker.

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continued->
 
..continued from last post.

1220: Chemistry -> Constitution. With the new islands discovered I decided that the window for a rifle invasion of the taoist lands would be closed and I decided to shoot for AL before preparing for war.
Gandhi stopped sulking so I OB:d and traded some resources.

1230: Const -> Steam Power. Pacal signs a peace treaty with Wang. After putting a turn into constitution I traded Pacal for it.

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1240: I start on Oxford's in Amsterdam after finishing a settler.

1250: Utrecht at long last overtakes Amsterdam's gpp and produce a great scientist, freeing the specialists to work on tiles. I save the GS for later.

1280: My first units arrive at the new islands, a settler among them.

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1330: I finally get Oxford's up in Amsterdam.

1340: I decided to do some begging but only Pacal gave me 40 gold with Churchill refusing once again and Hannibal being småländsk (sorry I'm tired).

1350: Steam Power -> Corporation. The dreaded GLH killer, but alas a necessary tech for AL. There are no sources of coal around but I see that there's one in the first ring of Persepolis, yet another reason to kill Darius.

1370: SoL BIDL (Churchill). My veterans from the Gepid campaign gets reinforced by additional knights and a rifleman and Saxon is soon captured, once again without losing any units and capturing a worker in the process and what's more, giving me a level 4 unit in the process and thus unlocking the HE. :)

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1390: With the colonization largely done and the universities and Oxford's in place, my good cities started to focus on getting a decent industrial-era production with forges and dikes while my poor cities slowly worked on commercial enhancing infrastructure useful even for small cities such as harbors, custom houses and courthouses. I finished the Moai Statues in Utrecht and then cancelled the silver for stone deal with Churchill, getting extra gpt for it instead.

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1400: I put research at 0% before finishing The Corporation to amass some gold before obsoleting the GLH and to complete an observatory in Amsterdam. With one turn also left on a GP in Amsterdam it seemed like a good place to end the round.

Demographics; GNP and Production is 4th behind the 3 civs ahead of me in score. Land is better with a 2nd position yet Gandhi has more than twice my land and 21 cities to my 12.

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Techs; I've fallen behind a bit again, mainly because I've been unwilling to part with the AL line of military and production techs, an edge that I think will be crucial to maintain as long as possible. Perhaps I'm being too conservative? Darius has Steel but fortunately he has no iron to build cannons so that is not a concern yet. He's only 2 techs from rifling though. Wang is a bit further behind.

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Mainland, east; 42% for a non GS gp as you can see, which would enable another GA. A merchant could be saved for Sid's Sushi but I'm leaning more on State Property since I wont be able to afford a taoist conquest otherwise. Besides I already occupy several landmasses. On the other hand if I take out the taoist block I might enable a backdoor UN win by making friends with the hindus and votes could be useful then.

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Mainland, west:

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North Island; I'm focusing mostly on production here, using the river for some cottages as well as keeping the village and hamlet the barbarians supplied.

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Northernmost Island group; Pacal beat me to another spot as you can see, I'm afraid I've lost out on both the two small islands actually. Notice that the eastern one is missing a forest in the far left corner that used to be there. Can an event or such destroy a random forest outside cultural borders?
Saxon is somewhat problematic in that the left fish could be stolen by the inner ring of a rival city unless I can get to 100 culture to protect it. I don't think the chances of that is great but I might try.

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Finally, a shot of the capital, producing 52% of my beakers:

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The immediate goal right now is to get production up a bit in my core cities. I'm teching toward AL planning to invade Darius with infantry. He has only 3 cities so I hope I can make do without siege. I could either bring some trebs or build up a sufficient force of frigates to bombard from the coast. Susa is not coastal though.
I've been lax in scouting Pacal's lands, I'm betting he's preparing an invasion fleet in Persepolis but I'll have little advance warning if he's descending on me. I plan to send down my wayward caravel to scout on this as soon as possible. The east indiaman is bringing workers and another settler (looks like I don't need it) to the island group and I plan to bring home some units from there.

If I successfully bring down Darius I could turn my attention to Wang. I've yet to get any great generals so perhaps Military Science would be a good idea to get some military academies up. Other interesting techs include fascism for the free GG and Mount Rushmore as well as possibly Police States, and Communism for State Property. Then there's Steel and Railroad for additional production. TGW is in Persepolis doubling any defensive land battles and all sea battles if I take control of it so if I take out Darius and dow Wang it might be an idea to kill of his SOD in former Persian lands (that is if Hannibal hasn't already taken care of that). Korea is a long land though, I'd really like some tanks there, but perhaps cavalry will do, or simply a fleet going from port to port.

In any case, if I manage to go through with all that I would have 21 cities to Gandhi's 21, which would set us up for a titanic clash and I might make history by deciding a modern war in favour of skill over industrial might. Well at least that's my crazy rambling plan insofar as I have any. :crazyeye: What do you think?
 

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that you played great(and you played, I would've give up looking at the land) and that DR(as laughable as it sounds) could prove a good chip to get physics/demo/eventually communism if steam is still unknown to most(thing which I doubt)

otherwise, obviously, next stop is industrialism... with the only observation that I'd hold onto trading steam with pacal/wang if any of them has coal(ironclads could provide a problem).
 
Does the northern city still need the Crab? If not you could use it with the capital to grow it a bit faster.
 
Going well, Oxford was late but couldn't be helped probably because of the need to settle the islands which was important. I like the plan of invading Darius/Wang, keep an half eye on Ghandi if he really waits too long with infantry/artillery you can turn on him.

I think you'll win the war against Darius/Wang, problem is that Ghandi might tech extremely fast, don't worry too much about that. If he goes cultural he's easy pickings, if he goes space you can take down the capital after launch (if it's near the coast that is otherwise you may have to intervene sooner). Try to get Han on Ghandi in the future.
Han is a contender too of course, this could be an exciting endgame.

I think holding off on trading steam is correct for now. The things you really need right now are AL, physics,artillery. I'd plan on trading AL to physics with Churchill or maybe Han if he's warring with Ghandi in the near future.
 
Hi Gliese.

I just wanted to unlurker for a second and drop you a line. I'm totally blown away by your reports, I love reading them. They are well-detailed, with excellent use of pictures, and even has good English (pet peeve!). This particular report is, together with Rusten's, hands down the most interesting I've read during my year-something reading these forums - I'm really, really looking forward to seeing if you can pull this off or not.

Keep up the great work!
 
BornSlippy: Thanks, it's good to know you enjoy these writeups. :)

SnowlyWhite: I would probably have quit this game if it was an offline one but I pay more attention to online games and gets lots of help here as well. As it turns out I've had some lucky breaks that's kept me in the game so far. Not getting declared on and finding some good island spots to colonize as well as weak civs nearby.

Grey Fox: I could but that would stagnate Utrecht that has 6 soon-to-be 2f2h3c coastal tiles to grow into while Amsterdam only has 2 mines and 2 non-Moai coastal spots that I'm keen on. Right now both cities are relatively close to another pop point.

Dirk: Good points all, I agree with them.

A couple of points:

* What do you all think about the next GP?

It could be a scientist a merchant or an artist. I already have a scientist saved in Utrecht. A non-scientist GP would enable another golden age. A merchant could be saved for later to construct Sid's Sushi if I don't go state property or even then to deny it to an AI (it complicates a possible UN win if Gandhi gets it). Scientists can bulb Physics right now (I did ponder doing so in order to trade for it and other techs with Steam Power but decided not to).

* What about national wonders?

I have unlocked the HE and was thinking of pairing it with Moai's in Utrecht. There's also the Ironworks in a not to distant future, I was thinking of maybe putting it in Middelburg (the central island city working the iron tile). I have lots of grassland tiles to put workshops on there. Globe Theater and National Park is not looking all that interesting right now. I have almost no forests and want to stay in Bureacracy.

* Civics?

I suppose I should eventually switch from HR to Police State but that might put Pacal to pleased and consequently in wfyabta -mode. On a related note, Pacal wants me to stop trading with Gandhi, if I delay that decision longer that will also put him down to pleased eventually, Gandhi has some neat resources to trade me though. US is not that interesting with few towns around and war looming.

As for legal civics Bureacracy seems optimal, no need to change really.

Labour, I could use CS to maximize workshop output but I expect more civs will start to adopt emancipation (Hannibal and Pacal is already in it). It would be especially effective if I run State Property as economic civic though, which seems a no-brainer at this point.

Religion, I should probably stay out of religion even if theocracy would be useful to get level 3 units, no?
 
I'd delay iw till getting a decent spot(one of the new capitols?). Frankly, your site has 0 health from forest(ghandi seems to chop the forest which could be shared with... delft I suppose? or that's how I remember the city name from geography...), is not on a long river(only 3 additional hammers) from dike on the inland slots and not being on a river will mean no additional health from fresh water either. Only plus comes from health from harbour, but that's offset by the huge amount of water tiles... On the other hand, don't know if you have the leisure to wait; I usually wait, but then I have a bigger opportunity window at infantry with slower speed, so enough time to grab a decent spot.

Plus... it's far far away for normal speed... it requires strong navy to ferry the troops and shrug... I never had a strong navy compared to a deity ai... they spam ships like no tomorrow so it's rather pointless.

However, fp would be interesting to be build on that island if you ever plan to abandon sp? Though I'd hold on that one too - mathematically, sushi trumps sp if you spread it fast; in 90% of my games I go with it, but here, with the lay of the land, I'd stay sp since sushi will take an eternity to spread. Bureau - obvious... theo - ugh. Police - too early, only after you get the 2 tiny guys(pacal/wang); imho, engages you on domi and you don't know yet if you want that path. Emancipation - yeah, if you war, I suppose... 1 less headache.

I'd actually do a trade with a gm, instead of a ga - all your modifiers are in one place, so keeping 100% slider helps alot plus you could prebuild a few rifles and upgrade them(production definitely ain't your strong point, even with dike)

Actually, looking again at it, has enough inland tiles I suppose, especially given the shaky health it'll have anyway so iw there might not be that bad...
 
BornSlippy: Thanks, it's good to know you enjoy these writeups. :)

SnowlyWhite: I would probably have quit this game if it was an offline one but I pay more attention to online games and gets lots of help here as well. As it turns out I've had some lucky breaks that's kept me in the game so far. Not getting declared on and finding some good island spots to colonize as well as weak civs nearby.

Grey Fox: I could but that would stagnate Utrecht that has 6 soon-to-be 2f2h3c coastal tiles to grow into while Amsterdam only has 2 mines and 2 non-Moai coastal spots that I'm keen on. Right now both cities are relatively close to another pop point.

Dirk: Good points all, I agree with them.

A couple of points:

* What do you all think about the next GP?

It could be a scientist a merchant or an artist. I already have a scientist saved in Utrecht. A non-scientist GP would enable another golden age. A merchant could be saved for later to construct Sid's Sushi if I don't go state property or even then to deny it to an AI (it complicates a possible UN win if Gandhi gets it). Scientists can bulb Physics right now (I did ponder doing so in order to trade for it and other techs with Steam Power but decided not to).

* What about national wonders?

I have unlocked the HE and was thinking of pairing it with Moai's in Utrecht. There's also the Ironworks in a not to distant future, I was thinking of maybe putting it in Middelburg (the central island city working the iron tile). I have lots of grassland tiles to put workshops on there. Globe Theater and National Park is not looking all that interesting right now. I have almost no forests and want to stay in Bureacracy.

* Civics?

I suppose I should eventually switch from HR to Police State but that might put Pacal to pleased and consequently in wfyabta -mode. On a related note, Pacal wants me to stop trading with Gandhi, if I delay that decision longer that will also put him down to pleased eventually, Gandhi has some neat resources to trade me though. US is not that interesting with few towns around and war looming.

As for legal civics Bureacracy seems optimal, no need to change really.

Labour, I could use CS to maximize workshop output but I expect more civs will start to adopt emancipation (Hannibal and Pacal is already in it). It would be especially effective if I run State Property as economic civic though, which seems a no-brainer at this point.

Religion, I should probably stay out of religion even if theocracy would be useful to get level 3 units, no?
The next GP will be an artist, because that would be the most sucky one to get. that is how the system works my friend. :D
A GA can always be used for a GA so I guess it would not hurt too much. A merchant will be good for that too. I think I'd go state property as you decided to go military. Extra production is very welcome and I think losing the benefit from the GLH did not do wonders for your economy. I think even moving to communism -> state property might be a good idea here. I never won deity so do not pin me on this. :)

I'd say definitely go for the HE, the location you proposed would be fine I guess. You do not really have any production monsters anyway from what I saw.

As for the rest, I think I already betrayed enough of my lack of experience that I shall not disgrace myself even further. :D
 
A trade mission, right I forgot about those. That might be a very good idea. :lol:

As for IW, yeah it's not an optimal location. Have a look at Persepolis though, 12 tiles boosted by dike, 4 hills, one of them containing coal and 4 food resources. That could be a production monster. The only negative from a production perspective is he's got 5 villages from the last intel I have, even then I'm counting a production of 44 pre-railroad and without running caste with only a dike (so 55 with forge), a little less with more villages and towns.

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I'm thinking maybe I should save IW for this city. I could even consider adding West Point there if I can trade for stone with Churchill again, not a wonder I usually build but if the invasion goes well and this ends up with a gigantic war against Gandhi it could come in handy. With IW and stone I might not need more than 4-5 turns to build it.

Edit, Shurdus: Actually I haven't lost the GLH yet (still one turn to go on Corps) so it gets worse. :D
I agree I'll probably do a golden age if I get an artist. I like SnowlyWhite's suggestion of a trade mission with a GM though.

Edit #2: I was a bit sloppy with my calculations and forgot that the stone does not actually cut the cost of WP in half, it's only another additive multiplier. 8-10 turns might be more realistic timeframe to get it built with a size 12-14 city after getting dike, forge & IW.
 
Building WP is a matter of deciding if to war again, and when to war again. If you plan on warring 20 turns after WP is done, it's bad hammer to xp conversion. Modern warfare is about numbers, not xp, so maybe skipping it altogether might be the best course of action. A barracks will give you 3 xp, WP would add 4, for 2 promotions.
You could get the same result from settling a GG there. I find my late game units have a hard time gaining promos, simply because I tend to level the defences with fleets of bombers, so they only gain 1 xp per battle. The average lifetime of my units isn't all that either, since I usually value speed over preserving my units.
Do you have the GT yet? Persepolis would make an excellent drafting site as well, with grassland and four 5F tiles.
 
DMOC: The question is, do I really want to bulldozer over villages and towns? My economy is going to go down the drain as it is.

JammerUno: Yeah I agree you outline the reason I seldom build the WP. OTOH I'm not all that used to modern warfare or warfare 21 cities vs 21 cities which might be the case if I take on India. If I've already gotten IW and have access to stone it might perhaps be worth it. I'm not sure about that but at least I'm not keen at settling GGs at this late stage. Having a stack healer could be good but for the most part I'd want to use them on military academies, I could certainly use the production boost. The WP would save me a GG for this to get some level 3 units and also allow level 4 ships with a drydock.
I did consider the globe but I think I want to stay in bureacracy for this. The capital is currently supplying more than half my research and the production boost acts as a free military academy. I have few cities that are good for draft right now and I don't like to draft infantry anyhow since it costs 2 pop. On top of that I'm not spiritual so it could be painful to switch civics then perhaps have to switch again.
 
I am wondering why you went for Corporation. Most of your cities are coastal. Getting Corporation can only gives you negative result.
 
Duckweed: Unfortunately it's a prereq for AL. I could put it on hold for another couple of turns or so to get even more money before completing it but there's a risk that some AI I don't want to piss off will ask me for a donation.
 
I see, you are beeline to AL.
Why don't you put some EPP on Pacal and see what he is researching and then choose the best tech path. I think it would be better to hold on Corporation to accumulate some money now.
 
If you don't want to struggle in late game, take down Gandhi and you win. If Pacal is not researching Electricity, I would trade for Physics and get Electricity and Radio, which are good for trading other techs. Research and keep Flight yourself and trade the Combustion line (AIs tend to go for combustion once they have SP). With Fighters and Bombers, you can build up a force of mainly cavs for a quick war vs Gandi. 1 movement units are too slow for invading a large empire.
 
modern is the time where the advantage is so high in human's favour it ain't fun(I usually don't play it since it so ********). When everything moves at speed 2, plus railroads, plus jets imho you can go at 1:4, 1:5 parity and still win easily. War with ghandi 1st means cav. vs mgs/infantry which hmm... it's not in favour of the 1st.

I'd postpone ghandi for pacal, then wang
 
^ I take it you mean Darius and Wang. I agree, taking on Ghandi now just might work but could easily backfire. I think chances of a fairly quick and successful war against Darius and Wang are heavily odds on. And once we've got them we will have enough production to take down Ghandi in a grand finale.
 
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