Gr10 - 5CC AWE

it would be nice to have a 2nd army, however, do we keep it for sipahis or fill it with knights?

Maybe we fill it with knights to go fot the even better 12 town slingshot?


Roster:
ThERat
Northern Pike
Obormot
M60A3TTS - up
Greebley

OK, i have another question about the rules: is suicidal ship-chaining allowed? If it is we may get an army over to another continent for pillaging while researching the needed techs. Otherwise we'll have to wait for astronomy anyway.

In any case we'll need astronomy for the main invasion force because we simply cannot afford so much galleys in 5CC. Since the AI have theology TGL will soon become obsolete Our research is slow and AI still don't know gunpowder, so i think we'll have to invade with knights. I think lets wait for the AI to give us education and then research astronomy. While waiting for astronomy we should kill off the french. I would finish the market builds, join native workers and disband some units to increase the research rate. I think cats should go first - we don't need a very high kill ratio in this game because the number of units is limited by unit support and we'll just replace the losses by building new units (knights vs. muskets without arty may be painfull though). After cats we should replace cheap units like spears, MDI, swords, archers by a smaller force of good units (knights, templars, ACs). Once we get education we may build unis.

Definitely fill that army with knights. Our research is terribly slow. It takes us 30 turns to get engineering without deficit. OK, maybe after building the markets, joining workers, etc. we'll reduce it to 15 turns. Still it is too long to wait for sipahis. We may just disband the AC army once we get MT and do another tripple capture.

Certainly one jump chaining is allowed since this uses the natural movement of the unit. This allows us to move 3+1+3 = 7 squares.

To do that one you move out the ships 4 squares (some sink) then in one turn you move boats out 3. All units jump a single square into the ships that are waiting and then move 3 more squares. All this doesn't use the "illegal" part of ship chaining so is 100% ok.

If we need to suicide chain for more than 7 squares, then we are using true chaining since they are jumping more than one boat. My thought was that if it is this far you lose too many boats to make it worthwhile even if it is legal. We can discuss that though. Ship chaining is probably the exploit which I care least about - it doesn't seems as exploitive as (for example) negotiating for peace to avoid a broken rep which is generally allowed.

It doesn't seem exploitive to me because it requires lots of resources, it is not something you get for free. This is unrealistic though, but who cares about realism?

My thought was to get the army over to the other continent via a ship chain so that we can start pillaging sooner. That won't require that many boats. The main invasion force should follow after astronomy.

Greebley, did you ever go back and do that 31 civ pangea game?

Not yet, but I still would like to do it in the future. Decided to go for the less time consuming 5CC first after various discussions.

Does anyone care about the ship chaining exploit? (think it damages the game?) If so i would say we shouldn't do it. If noone else cares then I am fine with dropping it as an exploit. You still use up boat movement so it isn't really unlimited movement is my reasoning. Sure a few units have unlimited movement, but lots of units means lots of resources tied up in it.

OTOH, I want to play an exploit free game for everyone and not just me. Thus a single "no chaining" vote and we won't do it. (sort of like Obormot's single no vote on closed diplomacy nixed that).

it's fine with me, but why would you need that anyway? Are we planning to send our knight army over to their continent for pillaging? This would mean an army filled with 1 knight and 2 more on another boat? We would need 6-7 boats for this as I guess 2-3/5 would sink.
But, do we have a safe landing spot where we can drop the units?

Sending an army to pillage a continent would be an exercise in futility, like trying to scrub a gym floor with a toothbrush. The AI will quickly restore the tiles once our army moves on. We need to define what the end game is. Are we turning off research after MT and going all out for domination at that point?

And knights vs muskets w/o arty isn't painful, it's suicide.

Looking at the map it doesn't matter if we chain. We could also get across without it.

I don't even think ship chaining is an exploit, though I avoid it games where that's the policy. One of the basic factors in history is that until railways, water transport was phenomenally superior to land transport--by a factor of about 100:1, where cost was concerned. The game models this reality better with ship chaining than without it, so what's the problem?

Sending an army to pillage a continent would be an exercise in futility, like trying to scrub a gym floor with a toothbrush. The AI will quickly restore the tiles once our army moves on

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Yes, but if we do everything fast we can get the army over before muskets and raze their towns. If we raze a core of a civ that would be helpfull. I think we did transport armies to other continents before even finishing cleaning the home continent to start hurting them earlier and it proved to be a a good strategy.

We need to define what the end game is. Are we turning off research after MT and going all out for domination at that point?

Click to expand...

I think MT should be the endpoint. But depending on how things will go we may want to get rails and RP. There is also still a long way to MT because TGL may soon become obsolete without giving us even engineering. We should have started a 50-turn lone scientist run on engineering just in case, but it is too late now.

And knights vs muskets w/o arty isn't painful, it's suicide.

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It's not that bad, you just need a steady supply of reinforcements . Well, i am not saying we should not use arty, but for now we don't need it and once we see muskets we better build trebs from scratch then upgrade existing cats given our money problem. So i still say we need to disband our cats now.

Sounds like noone minds ship chaining so feel free.

I wouldn't be adverse to building some more boats and mapping out the other continent while we clear our own continent off.

Getting a pillaging/razing knight army over to the other continent seems a good idea to me. A knight army can raze cities - This is especially true if noone has engineering yet as all we are fighting is pikes. I would send some pikes over as well as knights. The pikes absorb the initial attack on the first round.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/GR10-350AD.SAV

IBT- Mongol archer forces horse to retreat at Darhan

Turn 1- Kill Vike archer w/ sword clean 1-0 by Edrine. Kill 2 spears at Mongol capital. (3-0). Kill 2 Mongol archers at the cost of an AC. (5-1).

Turn 2- Kill 2 French archers and a spear by Besancon (7-1). Capture the town and raze. Redline the army, but kill 2 spears and an archer and we get 23 gold from the Mongol capital (10-1). Capital moves to Darhan. Dalandzadgad loses a spear to our AC (11-1).

IBT- Lose an MI by a French archer. (11-2). A bit of a problem, the Vikes land 2 swords and two archers by Edrine.

Turn 3- Kill 2 Vike swords at Edrine w/o loss (13-2) Kill French archer (14-2). Find the Indians with a galley and declare.

IBT- Our incense colony is overrun. We learn theology.

Turn 4- Kill the remaining archers at Edrine (16-2). Kill French spear (17-2).

IBT- Trade an MI for a French archer (17-3).

Turn 5- Destroy Darhan defended by 2 spears at the cost of an AC. (19-4).

IBT- Knights Templar in.

Turn 6- Kill 2 French archers and a Mongol one. (22-4)

Turn 7- Kill 4 French archers (26-4). Get pillaging spear onto French iron. Restore our incense colony.

Turn 8- Kill 4 more French archers. (30-4) Pillage their iron colony.

IBT- Mongols capture one of their workers back. That was deliberate, as it pulled a defending spear from the capital.

Turn 9- Kill another French archer (31-4). Kill 2 spears at the Mongol capital. (33-4).

IBT- Egypt building Copernicus.

Turn 10- Capture the Mongol capital and get 23 gold. (32-4) Temujin is out. Lose a sword clean at Hareid. (32-5) Add 5 French archers to our trophy case. (37-5). And done.

Upgraded some troops also. Our galley seems to be getting ignored as it maps out the other area. The French are a real PITA. No lack of archers as you can tell. They keep streaming down the Besancon Turnpike to the north of our incense colony. We’re starting to generate some knights now, so we should be able to make better headway. I think the French just had that one iron source briefly that we’re forted on. We need to keep that out of their hands. The army is healing to the east by the ex-Mongol empire.
Also not good news is the Vikings landed those swords earlier. Although they died, their grandkids will be much more formidable once they get invention.

Ok, I got it

We didn't try to get 3 towns at once for the second army?

Greebley said:

Ok, I got it

We didn't try to get 3 towns at once for the second army?

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I didn't have any confidence of pulling it off with the limited troops we had, so I opted on killing him as soon as possible. You should have an easier time doing it against the French now that we can build up the military.

Ok I have played and made some progress.

Early: Razed the french City of Amiens.
Started marching northward to battle France.

Mid: Raze the French City of Cherborg.

Lateestroyed the French Ivory Colony
Destroyed the French city of Grenoble.
Attacked Hareid, but lost all 3 battles - even the one that was knight vs 2 hp spear, so that town lived.
Destroyed an Egyptian city.

Notes:
Landings Were near Edrine at first, but then start to land near Uznik

I used our leader on the Heroic Epic. The idea was that we could get another before we could raze 3 cities in a turn. I was hoping I would renew the leader but no such luck even with a decent number of elite victories.. I really hope the next player gets one or I chose wrong.

We are researching Astronomy. Egypt is doing really well and we need to slow her down - She has both Banking and Astronomy over everyone else and has had Astronomy for a while - for example she settled 3 turns ago. However no AI has Engineering yet. This means they have a ways to go to Muskets and knights can do ok vs pikemen only. We need astronomy to get across without it costing a lot of boats. On the pluss side Egypt is very close.

I think we should work on getting a second Army and pillaging/razing Egypt as well. Step 1 is getting a leader.



If we weaken France a bit more, I think we can turn on Egypt next.

Roster:
ThERat
Northern Pike
Obormot
M60A3TTS - up
Greebley

guess your Roster is a little wrong, anyway, I got it...

Roster:
ThERat - up
Northern Pike
Obormot
M60A3TTS
Greebley

save

Pre-Turn

IT Vikings land 2 units in our south

1. 460AD
the RnG isn't really kind to us as 2 knights retreat versus their sword and MDI
another sword then loses to them
our galley discovers fur pretty close to our land

IT Egypt now lands 2 units next to Iznik

2. 470AD

we need to take out 3 cities at the same time, identify them and set up for the attacks

3. 480AD
join 2 workers into Iznik and defeat some units
turn 2 citizens into scientists at iznik as I do not want to increase lux

4. 490AD
set up for the 3 city gamble next turn

5. 500AD
Egypt again landed 2 warrior next to Iznik

the gambit:
take Hareid defeating 2 defenders, capture Avignon taking out 2 defenders and take Dijon with 2 denfenders as well


form our second army that needs to be shipped over to the other continent
abandon all 3 cities

take out a Viking settler pair
game crashes

also we have a new foe, France, declare on them

IT lznik is the hotspot, 4 Egyptian and 2 Viking units land there
Egypt finishes Bach
quite a few French units are near the incense

6.510AD
fill army with 2 knights and help defeat all 6 units

7. 520AD
this is getting tougher, French have a lot of units close to our borders, 13 to be exact and Sumer landed 4 units
next to Iznik
recall our army from French border to help out
take out 3 French and 3 Sumer units, not enough though

IT Sumerian horse suicides and we get astro, engineering next in 10 at deficit

8. 530AD
take out 4 French units
we need now 3 caravels for units to ship over to Egypt

9. 540AD
Raze Lyons and while mopping up another archer we get a MGL
lose a knight trying to take out a Egypt settler pair, mind you it was a warrior
we now have 2 caravels, and are building another one
we should send the army and some knights to accompany

10. 550AD
finally manage to connect fur
defeat a few French and 1 landed MDI from Vikings

reduce lux to 10%, we can now run research at 40% at no deficit

this is where we should aim for with the caravels, the mountain next to, I guess Pi-Ramesses