The Emperor Masters' Challenge

I actually dont think you have lost much time/beakers/whatever by playing how you have done so far, it is what you do next that will be crucial. Right now there is no definite spot to put you second city. Only spot that is totally clear will have a city at some point to me is between the copper and the silk. The fishing village looks best at D and the other two cities are way to early to discuss without more fogbusting. I have a feeling that the stonecity will be better situated one or two tiles south.

My own personal thoughts incorporatetd into your own progres:

Finish pottery(will need the granary sooner and the cottages later) then research hunting-AH, why? Because your sheep and cow resources but also as mutineer pointed out to help deciding where to put your next city. You might even need ironworking to do that!! IW will also help you settle the area to the south of you.
I say get a second worker out as erly as possible after your city reached size 3. Your current worker finish the farm then mines the hill, after that he can chop one single forest to speed up the next worker. Build a warrior for exploring while you wait for the city to grow.
When to settle the second city is to early to say, bot not before the discovery of AH and preferably not before you built some more defences(axemen).

Round 2: 2740BC - 1570BC

Well, I think we're quite beyond schedule by my reckoning. It's already page 7and we are still pretty much stuck at the beginning of the game. I decided to waste no more time and proceed with the game. Played many turns to speed things up a little.

Our ancestors first learned to cultivate crops. The fertile plains along the banks of the Gold River must have been convenient for this purpose. Inundated yearly by the river, whereupon rich alluvial soil were gradually heaped onto the ground, the flood plains grew enough food for their sustenance.

Then they came. The Mongolian wanderers. The people of Timbuktu knew many lands around their city: the lush jungles of the south, the hills and forests of the west and the sea to the north; but they have never seen people so different. The Mongolians had skin that was different from even the remotest tribal people of the jungle. They spoke no language known to anyone, but soon it was understood that they served a great chief called Khan. They were a warlike people, but far from their home, the wanderers desired peace. They soon departed from the city, but continued to wander the nearby lands.

Our records tell us that our ancestors were among the first to work bronze. Their stomachs full, they were able to learn new arts. The stone tip gave way to the bronze tip, fuelled by the trickle of copper that came from the west. The records tell us of plans for extensive mining, plans that were, alas, not realised for a long time more.

Thanks to the various advice that I just got, I was able to chart a path into the near future. I decided to finish researching Pottery and farming the second flood plain. However, I changed the build to warrior to allow Timbuktu grow to size 3.

Look what the northeast has to offer.



Nice. The hill would be good spot for a city in the future.

Once the warrior is built, Timbuktu was size 3 and settler production continued. The worker had finished farming by then and I moved him to the gold hill SW to mine it. Once that was done, he went to chop the forest west of capital for the settler.

Research-wise, Pottery was followed by Hunting, which would be followed by AH. And I met another neighbour.



Looks like his scout has had to travel a little distance too. Two aggressive neighbours. Interesting... Then I found where Kublai is.



The drums are beginning to roll, preparing to hail an impending war. Looks like going BW instead of Archery first might just pay off.

Fast forward a little,



Following Mutineer's advice, I didn't whip rush the settler. When it was almost complete (intended for the fish city at site D), I realised that we wouldn't have anything to build at the new city. A workboat would be useless as border expansion was needed to gain acess to the fish. I need a culture building built in that city first. 1 turn left to AH, and with Pottery also researched, Writing would be good to research next. A library would be the 2nd city's first build, helped by some chopping. A financial coastal town could use a library in the future anyway.

I put another warrior on top of the settler in Timbuktu's build queue. Barbs are starting to appear and we need at least 1 warrior per city for defense, besides the two that are doing some exploring quite far from our territory. This would help to delay the settler until the 2nd city could have a library as its first build. No horses near enough to us, by the way.

I timed it such that as the warrior was built Timbuktu grows to size 4. Then it's back to the settler. In the meantime, looks like Kublai is up to something already:



Later on I found out that it's a dumb spot to settle on. Both stone and horses were out of the fat cross. But (as it becomes apparent later on) the city probably means Kublai probably knows IW already. Can that be? You can't settle on jungle until you know IW, right?

Anyway, the settler was completed about the time Writing was researched (super fast with two gold mines), and Djenne was established.



Yes, I researched Archery after Writing. Somebody might want to kill me for this, but I did it just in case we need some Skirmishers quickly. I admit this is also partly because I feel emphatic towards those who wish to see the UU put into use. After this we are moving on to the bigger techs like Alphabet and IW, so if not Archery now it will only be gotten through tech trading. It will be nice to have some Skirmishers follow the axe stack to defend newly captured cities later on, and I might not get the opportunity to trade for Archery before the war happens.

Anyway, this is a view of Timbuktu a few turns later:



After the settler, the capital went on to build a worker, which was needed to chop the library in Djenne and improve the land around it while the other one hooks up the copper. The latter worker had finished building the sheep pasture (Mutineer's wish ) and would move towards the copper on the next turn.

After Archery, I researched Alphabet, which would be good for checking the AI's tech progress. This is an aspect of my playing style, as I like to trade for Maths and a few other techs like Polytheism that the AI loves to race for, instead of researching them myself. Maybe we can trade for IW as well. One Alphabet tech allows you to grab all the AI techs that you don't have. Alphabet also puts us one step closer to Literature and the Great Library, which has been suggested as a viable option.

Once the second worker is completed, I sent it to build a short road to Djenne. Once this is done it would proceed to chop the forests around Djenne for the library.



This is the map of the known world at this point:



Any thoughts on the progress?

It's late now and I'm tired. I'm sorry if I said anything incomprehensible or didn't explain something properly. Please reduce the venom for the moment I'll probably not play tomorrow and spend the time planning for the next round and maybe doing some damage control.

I think you are doing well. Your first city is generating a lot of science/gold/production and the 2nd is nicely located. The 2nd was founded a little bit later than I'm used to seeing. That is probably because I play on a lower difficulty level though.

Kublai may not have Iron Working yet. You can found a city on a jungle tile without it; you just can't clear the land around it. So the city could have health/growth problems until IW is available. Like you said, not the smartest location for a city, but hey, this is the AI after all. Definitely raze-worthy.

I don't blame you for going after Archery for Skirmishers. They're cheaper than Axemen and a better defensive unit, so I think there's a good synergy there, especially with that 4 strength. I'd give most City Garrison promotions, but one or two with Guerilla and/or Woodsman would help protect your stack of Axemen.

I can understand going after Alphabet, though I usually delay it a little longer, especially after I got burned on it in a recent game. Be careful with the tech trades. You're on a continent with at least two Aggressive civs. I've never been able to get along with either of them for very long. Trades benefit them as much as you.

Looks like, thanks to your borders and those peaks, you can settle your northeast peninsula at your leisure. Looks like you could get two cities up there--is there any more seafood off its north or west coasts?

Good game so far. Looking forward to seeing more!

It seems you have to great GPF-spots (Djenne and NE-hill with 3 food resources.) What are you going to do about that?

Mismanagemanet in Djenne:
Library = stupid. You'll need to be putting out 4 commerce before the library gives you an advantage (aside from cultural). If you want culture for getting the fish, build an obelisk. Libraries are too expensive to bother with this early on. You don't have copper hooked up yet, but in due time you will. If you profess to want an axe-rush, would not a barracks also be a wise investment there?
Djenne also could have borrowed one of Timbuktu's floodplains for quicker growth and a little more commerce. If you have food, you can whip stuff like granaries for even more whipping! Obelisks and fishing boats will both whip for 1 population. Whipping is better than a 1:1 conversion of food->hammers, which is the best you do by working forests. Once you have a granary, it becomes even better than that! Whipping every 10 turns is like adding a +3 hammer resource to the city at the cost of only 1 unhappiness.

library is for GS, not commerce, if i may add something

acidsatyr said:

library is for GS, not commerce, if i may add something

Click to expand...

Seconded. It allows us to grow a great scientist for an academy in Timbuktu without having to stop working the gold mines.

Actually, if there was a delay before the fishing boat was needed/useable, you could have built a Granary (fast growing cities benefit from the whip), or a barracks for a second military city if you had to.

I have settled on Jungle with IW not in the immediate plans just to claim the location I wanted.

The Library was built for culture, and the city will hit that four commerce marck before too long anyway with teh coast and the Silk in the fat cross. It all depends on when Calendar comes available...

Looks like Timbuktu will hit health cap before happy cap (thanx to gold), presumably you'd pasteurize the cows to sort that. I'm slightly confused why you're working a forested hill (1f,2p) when you could be alternating between floodplain and gold hill (1 turn floodplain,3turns gold hill gives same growth, more prod and much more commerce)
I guess one question will be do you go for north east fishing city next or build up a stack of axes. Looks like you've got a good barb chokepoint to north east just north of the sheep.
Presumably Djenne's library is being built for both culture to snag fish and GS points once fish have been snagged.

A granary in Djenne might have been better at first and then you could whip whatever you need, library/barracks. I must say going for archery makes sense to me at this point, the barbs can be appearing any moment now and its though to handle them with warriors. The copper will take a few turns to complete and they might come in the meantime. Im saying this from a current game I played at emperor with agressive bararians turned on, I had to reload that game several times to survive their first onslaught, it was the most intense start of a game I ever had. My conclusion: Never underestimate the barbs.

On a different topic, your next build in the capitol should be a granary. Lets just hope you can finish it before you have to whip some troops out ...

I don't think the libary is stupid. There's no reason why we should research Mysticism now. Obelisks get obsolete pretty quickly and Djenne is going to be a high commerce city anyway with the coastal tiles. A library would be good/needed there sooner or later. Plus, as was pointed out, it will allow us to allocate scientists for that GS. Why not get it now for culture? What is Djenne in a hurry to build? And there are some forests to chop to speed up the construction.

While I did mention axes, I haven't started talking about an axe rush. Whether we are really going to an early war with pure axes is, I feel, too early to determine. At the moment, Kublai is not near enough to our borders, and when he is, we might need catapults to help overcome high cultural defenses. It's too early to start building an axe army that will only eat into our treasury and won't be able to see much action till later.

Hence, I don't think Djenne needs barracks at this point. I also think it's more important to hook up the fish asap than get a granary right now.

As for Timbuktu, barracks is something that I just selected because I haven't thought of what is the most appropriate build for it now. The tiles being worked are assigned by the governor once the worker was built on the beginning of this turn. I haven't reviewed them yet.

Now I need to ask the important question: what's next? As pigswill suggested, we can either concentrate on settling some of the good spots around or settle at most one more city and then prepare for war.

Arguments in favour of settling: there are some fine locations for cities that we can claim first if we try hard enough, and Skirmishers will provide adequate defense from both barbs and AI intentions. Arguments against settling: we would be letting the enemy's cultural defenses pile up for a long time (Creative) and might need catapults even for the first war, and Kublai would be much more powerful by then.

Arguments in favour of war: it's better to kill the AI early, when it's still weak and only has archers (and maybe a few axes) against our axe stack, and killing Kublai would allow us to settle some of the good spots we haven't claimed at our leisure after that. Arguments against war: we have only have two cities with which to churn out axes right now and we haven't set up the necessary infrastructure to prepare for war. Kublai's borders are still quite some distance away and it would be difficult to fight a war at that distance. Napoleon might come along and snag some of the good spots or the empty spots between Mali and Mongolia while we are fighting. There's also the problem of upkeep should we gain control of such a big chunk of land early.

Thoughts? Feel free to criticise the points I made if you disagree, but please refrain from flaming so as not to start a fight. Be happy people

By the way, I should thank you guys for your patience up to this point. Conducting this challenge has been much harder than I thought it would be and we are going rather slowly.

One thing I considered was whether I should have just gone for Mathematics instead of Alphabet, as it allows Construction and CoL. The former would be useful for catapults, which we will need at some point, maybe soon. The latter would allow us to build courthouses to save on upkeep. This might have been a better choice if we are going to war soon. It would have also given us more flexibility to choose to do so according to the situation.

It's a bit late now, though. Hopefully Alphabet will bring us benefits that we cannot yet see.

Another consideration is that you're going to need fog-busters/border patrol pretty soon. Do you build axes (CR promotions) or skirmishers (better defenders) or a mixture of both?

research Alphebet, The AI researches towards Maths relatively quickly on Emp u can trade Alphebet for Maths later and push for Construction... if your looking for an early Cats Wars I'd go for maths as a beeline to Consturction as long as you settle on nice Greenland areas (that don't have jungle) which can be cottaged for quickyl to use as science cities especially with a Library in those cities.

BTW are to planning to pop a Great Scientist in your 2nd City research Alphebet and drama and maths to pick up Philosophy (tech) in the mid term future?

Anyway, is there any reason why you are not working gold in save?

Yes, the reason was given: "The tiles being worked are assigned by the governor once the worker was built on the beginning of this turn. I haven't reviewed them yet."

I'll probably build Skirmishers first for now to use as defense and barb busters.

kniteowl, what you said is right. Philosophy is a consideration for the future, though. I have a feeling that we'd have to fight before we get to it.

These comments are not intended to be harsh:

I feel like you are pursuing a winding, unfocused path. Hunting was not necessary for AH because you already had agriculture. Better to have gone mysticism imho to 1pop pop rush an obelisk in 2nd city so that you can work fish sooner for more poprushing (of a library if you wanted it) sooner. Then, after delaying for skirmishers early because you have bronze, you opt for going skirmishers and delaying war? You have copper, you invested in bronze, mongols are close enough and you're probably gonna raze the cities anyways = more gold than you'll spend on your army. Why not go to war? Also, you researched pottery for basically no use imho. You've farmed the floodplains where you would rather have cottages (getting surplus food from pastures) since you did research pottery. Also, as others have mentioned you have barracks and now granaries (because of pottery) and you opted for a hammer-expensive (and not really poprushable due to low surplus food) library in 2nd city. Finally, you're committed to rex (good idea imo with mansa) but instead of focusing on archers + chop/pop rushing settlers early you've delayed this? Rex, war, winding research path, confusion of tiles in capital (farmed floodplains now doing nothing), etc.

I hope that the variety of comments in this thread isn't taking the game in too many directions at once. My advice is don't be afraid to take a stand and commit to a given direction (based on your best take of the advice in the thread). But then commit to it and go at it and we'll help/critique it along the way.

In my head I do have ideas of what I am going to do, almost regardless of whatever criticism might come. However, the nature this kind of thread is such that I have to consider the views being given and come up with more or less a compromise that I consider to be the best way forward and apply it to the game. Or else, people might interpret it as I am not taking suggestions, and more might choose to 'unsubscribe'. I don't profess to be a master player anyway, so I wouldn't be able to showcase perfection on my own.

On the flip side, I can't stop every turn and ask for opinions on the next move, so I have to make independent decisions based on my interpretation of the best plan. This is what causes the 'mistakes' so far. I admit that the some of the moves I make might, sadly, not be the best. But I am, after all, exeperienced at Emperor. I have faith that my decisions are not likely to be disastrous.

I am not so negative about the game at this point. It wasn't easy to for me choose a definite path, being unfamiliar with Mansa. However, my thoughts are now beginning to lean towards settling. BW wouldn't be a waste as it enabled chopping and Slavery, so that's not bad, and the good locations would justify settling and developing them early. The two gold mines can finance expansion.

I consider it a waste to raze the better core cities of the AI, so I won't go to war until I have definite targets. What I would do next is to complete the library in Djenne. It's a bit too late to talk about obelisks now and I don't believe that the library is necessarily a bad choice. I would start on a granary in Timbuktu and use it to pop rush settlers/workers/Skirmishers later. The granary would be whipped as well.

I am still learning, both about the game and about running a thread like this. I hope things will take off and show some success soon, although it is impossible to please everyone.

i'm not negative about the game and i look forward to seeing it progress.

i would still question the timing of hunting, archery, and pottery but if you have a vision in mind, i'm satisified.