Did Stalin's leadership do more good or harm for his country during the Eastern Front

Domen · Mar 18, 2013

Domen, Russia has exactly the same rights to possess Kaliningrad district, as Poland has rights to possess its current territory.

One question:

Does Russia have more rights to possess Moscow than Poland to possess Warsaw?

Just a reminder, in Middle Ages Spain and Portugal divided whole planet to their spheres of influence.

But no other state or nation or tribe recognized this.

Just like there was no recognition for the Soviet possession of Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia - see below.

In short: agreement is made, Finland, Estonia and Latvia are to belong to USSR.

Nope, mate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki_Accords

(...) Considering objections from Canada, Spain, Ireland and other states, the Final Act simply stated that "frontiers" in Europe should be stable but could change by peaceful internal means.[9]:65 U.S. President Gerald Ford also reaffirmed that US non-recognition policy of the Baltic states' (Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia) forced incorporation into the Soviet Union had not changed.[10] Leaders of other NATO member states made similar statements.[9]:65 (...)

So the Helsinki Accords only admited that the Red Army was occupying the Baltic states.

Which was a fact and could not be changed without a military conflict at that time. And nobody wanted a military conflict or had enough power to push the Soviets back from the Baltic states by force.

But it did not recognize the Soviet supposed (i.e. self-proclaimed) right to incorporate those countries.

Just like no other state recognized the Spanish and Portugal self-proclaimed right to entire Earth as established in the treaty of Tordesillas.

Which is one of reasons why all modern countries which exist in South America - and which were once Spanish or Portugal colonies - were recognized by other countries. So was the USA, which rebelled from the English colonies in North America.

red_elk · Mar 18, 2013

Domen, I don't even understand what you want to prove in this thread.
What I got so far were hysterical rants and idiotic assertions about Soviet inherent evilness, that Russia doesn't have rights for Kaliningrad district and that USSR lost Winter War.

But you sure do look funny

Domen · Mar 18, 2013

dismissing historical evidence based on one's own ignorance is not good argumentation.

I study Law at the University - I had the course of International Law and completed it with good grade.

I know the difference between temporarily accepting the factual situation and givining international recognition to somebody's action. There was never international recognition for Soviet occupation of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia - only admission of undesired reality, because bad peace was better than war.

I quoted an excerpt which explicitly says that there was common policy of non-recognition for Soviet actions in the Baltic area.

Anyone else in this thread has legal education? Red Elk or Hehehe? No I guess.

So don't interpret things which you simply don't understand, because you have no proper qualifications.

Cheezy the Wiz · Mar 18, 2013

Domen said:
Tell this to all pre-contract, pre-state and pre-company societies in history.

Gladly.

Domen · Mar 18, 2013

Time to end my discussion with these "Homines Sovieticus", I might as well talk to a wall of bricks.

red_elk · Mar 18, 2013

Domen said:
Time to end my discussion with these "Homines Sovieticus", I might as well talk to a wall of bricks.

It was a good demonstration of my opponents' rationality, as Yeekim noticed

Domen · Mar 18, 2013

Red Elk said:
as Yeekim noticed

Yeekim wrote about JEELEN, not me.

And what Yeekim actually wrote, was that you are not reasonable, Red Elk, but you have the ability to annoy people - and when they are annoyed, but keep discussing with you (like JEELEN) - it makes you look reasonable.

This is why I decided to stop discussiing before you annoy the * out of me and you start to make the impression of being reasonable.

Cheezy the Wiz · Mar 18, 2013

Domen said:
Time to end my discussion with these "Homines Sovieticus", I might as well talk to a wall of bricks.

Sweetheart, my only other post in this thread has been sharply critical of Soviet ethnic policy. But if you still feel the need to engage in that age-old Polish practice of making sure the entire planet is united against you, then by all means feel free.

Domen · Mar 18, 2013

Cheezy - I was referring to Hehehe and Red Elk, not you.

has been sharply critical of Soviet ethnic policy.

There are many other aspects of Soviet rules which deserve sharp criticism 100 times more than their ethnic policy.

in that age-old Polish practice of making sure the entire planet is united against you

Huh. You forgot about the rest of the Universe, mate.

BTW - I didn't know that this age-old practice is connected to or "owned by" any nationality or ethnicity.

I suppose you are operating with too many ethnic stereotypes in your posts. Which is quite ironic considering your views.

red_elk · Mar 18, 2013

Domen said:
This is why I decided to stop discussiing before you annoy the * out of me and you start to make the impression of being reasonable.

You still have more * inside? Impressive.

Hehehe said:
I'm just dropping this general piece of advice here: dismissing historical evidence based on one's own ignorance is not good argumentation.

Looks like you are a Stalinist, according to some people :mischief:

Hehehe · Mar 18, 2013

Domen said:
Nope, mate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki_Accords

So the Helsinki Accords only admited that the Red Army was occupying the Baltic states.

Which was a fact and could not be changed without a military conflict at that time. And nobody wanted a military conflict or had enough power to push the Soviets back from the Baltic states by force.

But it did not recognize the Soviet supposed (i.e. self-proclaimed) right to incorporate those countries.

Domen said:
I study Law at the University - I had the course of International Law and completed it with good grade.

I know the difference between temporarily accepting the factual situation and givining international recognition to somebody's action. There was never international recognition for Soviet occupation of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia - only admission of undesired reality, because bad peace was better than war.

I quoted an excerpt which explicitly says that there was common policy of non-recognition for Soviet actions in the Baltic area.

Anyone else in this thread has legal education? Red Elk or Hehehe? No I guess.

So don't interpret things which you simply don't understand, because you have no proper qualifications.

Domen said:
Time to end my discussion with these "Homines Sovieticus", I might as well talk to a wall of bricks.

Domen said:
Cheezy - I was referring to Hehehe and Red Elk, not you.

Dude, first of all, chill. Second, go read my post. Read it and click the link. I was talking about the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, contents of which do not seem to be clear to everyone (for more information, please read the link). Thirdly, this is the internet. Whatever qualifications you may have, do not matter. Only the quality of your posts does.

I've been called a lot of things but never a soviet sympathizer. I could be accused of many things, but loving USSR, or Russia for that matter, is not one of them. But in theory I agree with you, pro-soviet posters can be a bit stubborn and even misguided sometimes.

Tahuti · Mar 19, 2013

Hehehe said:
But in theory I agree with you, pro-soviet posters can be a bit stubborn and even misguided sometimes.

Pro-Soviet posters put authenticity before morality. They do not care about the morality of Soviet politics, but the imagery associated with it.

Spoiler :

Cheezy the Wiz · Mar 19, 2013

What does that statement even mean?

Tahuti · Mar 19, 2013

Cheezy the Wiz said:
What does that statement even mean?

They find everything Soviet aesthetically pleasurable, which seduces them to adopt Soviet morality. It's like supporting Keynesianism and MacCarthyism because you like Art Deco and 1950s Americana. Or me supporting the return of the Holy Roman Empire because of my avatar.

Cheezy the Wiz · Mar 19, 2013

Erm, I have never encountered that progression of thought, not in this thread nor anywhere else. I challenge you to provide evidence of such a position. And I assure you, as a "pro-Soviet poster," I don't subscribe to such a...ridiculous idea, and I certainly know more people willing to defend the USSR than you.

Tahuti · Mar 19, 2013

Cheezy the Wiz said:
Erm, I have never encountered that progression of thought, not in this thread nor anywhere else. I challenge you to provide evidence of such a position. And I assure you, as a "pro-Soviet poster," I don't subscribe to such a...ridiculous idea, and I certainly know more people willing to defend the USSR than you.

Bottom line is that people adopt morality for aesthetic reasons and the purpose of gaining an identity. Though that would a topic best discussed in another thread with Plotinus on.

red_elk · Mar 19, 2013

Kaiserguard said:
They find everything Soviet aesthetically pleasurable, which seduces them to adopt Soviet morality.

In Soviet Russia, morality adopts you!
Seriously, we all are biased to some extent, but most people see bias only in others.
As for aesthetically pleasurable, I can name you a few Soviet things or concepts, which are plain garbage.

Cheezy the Wiz · Mar 19, 2013

Kaiserguard said:
Bottom line is that people adopt morality for aesthetic reasons and the purpose of gaining an identity. Though that would a topic best discussed in another thread with Plotinus on.

That's not a bottom line, that's you restating your opinion that I just challenged.

Traitorfish · Mar 19, 2013

What are "Soviet aesthetics", anyway?

ace99 · Mar 19, 2013

Glorious Soviet concrete apartments are beloved by the masses:

Who wouldn't fall in love with the Soviet Union after beholding that concrete beauty?

Did Stalin's leadership do more good or harm for his country during the Eastern Front

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