WWII Europe: Small, Fast & Beautiful for IV - Discussion & Creation Diary
- Thread starter Paasky
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Paasky said:That's actually how I do stuff, although I'm not the one doing the python, I'm just doing units/buildings/map/huge amount of rule changeing.
Bad News Everybody:
The medics (& therefore antihealths) are NOT cumulative. That means that the highest (prob being -10% = antihealth 1) will be the only one working in a stack. Now the good news is that the units can start loseing strength if they don't have oil/ammo/munitions.
More to come as it unfolds
The question becomes, how does the offensive opponent make it such that the defender cannot have access to oil/ammo/munitions and how can you increase the anti-health to -50% as a base value for units behind enemy lines?
Paasky
Good News Everyone!
Well, if civ can trace back a resource, why can't we use that data?
So, here's what it should do:
If BONUS_AMMO can't be traced, Unit Strength -50%
If BONUS_OIL can't be traced, Units which need oil Movement = 0
If BONUS_FOOD can't be traced, reduce unit strength by 20% & health per turn -50%
All of these would be checked in the beginning of a turn, so if an SMG-Inf is without food for 3 turns, it will have reduced the strength into 5.1
If possible, they would start to work if the bonuses can't be traced for 2 or more turns (So that you can move your unit into enemy territory this turn, and still move it back/onto a road the next turn before it becomes immobile).
So, here's what it should do:
If BONUS_AMMO can't be traced, Unit Strength -50%
If BONUS_OIL can't be traced, Units which need oil Movement = 0
If BONUS_FOOD can't be traced, reduce unit strength by 20% & health per turn -50%
All of these would be checked in the beginning of a turn, so if an SMG-Inf is without food for 3 turns, it will have reduced the strength into 5.1
If possible, they would start to work if the bonuses can't be traced for 2 or more turns (So that you can move your unit into enemy territory this turn, and still move it back/onto a road the next turn before it becomes immobile).
Hmmm. Sounds goood. I thin'. But, not sure what is happening. Are you saying that supply units would have to accompany the units or they lose x resource? Like World at War, for example? Or all units have these bonuses which only exist if traced to a city?
LittleRedPoint
Slaver
I have an idea, it takes a lot of scripting but i guess it is possible. So if you add new data fields to the unit. Thare is strenght=18 for example. Add new fields like Ammo=10, Oil =10, Food=10.
The algoritm for oli is one movement=-1 oil "strenght". If you have access to oli, then the unit can re-fuel. it can describe in phyton.
if oil "strenght" = 0 then you can't move it.
The algorithm for ammo is 1 battle= -x ammount of ammo (random)
You can reload if you have access to ammo. What is produced by certain building (Arsenal or ammo factory) similar like hit musical for Broadway wonder
Is it unrealistic?
The algoritm for oli is one movement=-1 oil "strenght". If you have access to oli, then the unit can re-fuel. it can describe in phyton.
if oil "strenght" = 0 then you can't move it.
The algorithm for ammo is 1 battle= -x ammount of ammo (random)
You can reload if you have access to ammo. What is produced by certain building (Arsenal or ammo factory) similar like hit musical for Broadway wonder
Is it unrealistic?
Paasky
Good News Everyone!
Nuh Uh:No, Yes.
Although it's still on an experimantalstage, it might work, or it might not. The system would see if the square which the unit is on, or any of the surrounding squares, has that specific resource in your trade-routes (which civ calculates automatically. The only problem is that it won't find them on roads that are under the enemies culture (correct me if I'm wrong, sanrko) and so any long "sieges" of cities are impossible. But on the other hand, isn't this also a good thing? Because if you were deep inside enemy territory, even though you had conquered the land from the army, the local poeple would often harass supply convoys.
Maybe it's possible to make every unit continue the resource-trail, so that if there are 10 units side-by-side in a line, and only one unit is near friendly territory, every unit is adjecent of that resource-trail. Probably not possible, but it's one idea.
LRP: That's actually quite a good idea, but what about the AI?But when the AI SDK is out, this can be brought back up. It would (sort of)be the same as bomber movement in civ2. The movement was 8, yet the range was 16, so it could move for 2 turns (and block enemy troop movement in the process
).
Although it's still on an experimantalstage, it might work, or it might not. The system would see if the square which the unit is on, or any of the surrounding squares, has that specific resource in your trade-routes (which civ calculates automatically. The only problem is that it won't find them on roads that are under the enemies culture (correct me if I'm wrong, sanrko) and so any long "sieges" of cities are impossible. But on the other hand, isn't this also a good thing? Because if you were deep inside enemy territory, even though you had conquered the land from the army, the local poeple would often harass supply convoys.
Maybe it's possible to make every unit continue the resource-trail, so that if there are 10 units side-by-side in a line, and only one unit is near friendly territory, every unit is adjecent of that resource-trail. Probably not possible, but it's one idea.
LRP: That's actually quite a good idea, but what about the AI?But when the AI SDK is out, this can be brought back up. It would (sort of)be the same as bomber movement in civ2. The movement was 8, yet the range was 16, so it could move for 2 turns (and block enemy troop movement in the process
).Well, sadly, I am at this particular stage of the game (pardon the pun), unable to say what is or what is not possible with the python or the mongoose. But, the simpler the better - the broader in its context - the better for me, at least. In otherwords, I would like to see a supply system that is #1 automated #2 applicable to all of the eras of warfare. If I'm playing a medieval scenario, I would still want a similar supply system, and oil would not be an issue. So my gut reaction is to say supply should include all of the above resources rather than be case specific. On the other hand, if its just a question of 'filling in the blanks' with whatever resource is required of the period, and it still does not require a lot of micromanagment, I'm all for it.
Paasky said:Nuh Uh:No, Yes.
Although it's still on an experimantalstage, it might work, or it might not. The system would see if the square which the unit is on, or any of the surrounding squares, has that specific resource in your trade-routes (which civ calculates automatically. The only problem is that it won't find them on roads that are under the enemies culture (correct me if I'm wrong, sanrko) and so any long "sieges" of cities are impossible. But on the other hand, isn't this also a good thing? Because if you were deep inside enemy territory, even though you had conquered the land from the army, the local poeple would often harass supply convoys.
Maybe it's possible to make every unit continue the resource-trail, so that if there are 10 units side-by-side in a line, and only one unit is near friendly territory, every unit is adjecent of that resource-trail. Probably not possible, but it's one idea.
LRP: That's actually quite a good idea, but what about the AI?But when the AI SDK is out, this can be brought back up. It would (sort of)be the same as bomber movement in civ2. The movement was 8, yet the range was 16, so it could move for 2 turns (and block enemy troop movement in the process
Previous post was to little red riding point.
I see what you mean, now. Well, it sounds great IF you can get the AI to extend the trade routes to include a special unit - THE SUPPLY HEAD. The unit would have to be modeled after a city in terms of code, I would imagine, such that the AI would include it in the trade route. If the unit is destroyed - then the trade route would drop. Or, IDEALLY if you could somehow make it that if the Supply Head was behind enemy troops, it would be severed from the trade route...
Along this same line of reasoning, it doesn't seem a far stretch in terms of scripting to develop a unit that looks to the AI like a city. Except that it moves and carries its own cultural boundary. Then you would only need so many of said unit to make a trade route extension. Would that work for the system you are referring to?
DarthCycle
Boardgame freak and 4X games enthusiast
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Supply is an interesting feature for sure, however I seriously doubt the feasibility of implementing it.
It probably requires a lot of work to design such a model within the game files (xml,python and SDK) and it will require an even greater amount of work to ensure that the AI will be able to handle the said model properly.
IMHO, I don't think it's worth the effort. It would be much more beneficial to the mod to spend the next 200 hrs of modding into designing techs, units, factions, play testing and balancing instead of a single supply model that might or might not work.
Wargames usually try to implement supply model, and few of them are able to make their AI handle it properly (their units stay in supply). None of them are able to use it to their advantage (trying to cut your supply).
I think this is the wrong place to try to do this. Again, this is just me speaking here. You're all free to spend the next 6 months to try to implement this single feature, I just don't think it's worth the effort.
It probably requires a lot of work to design such a model within the game files (xml,python and SDK) and it will require an even greater amount of work to ensure that the AI will be able to handle the said model properly.
IMHO, I don't think it's worth the effort. It would be much more beneficial to the mod to spend the next 200 hrs of modding into designing techs, units, factions, play testing and balancing instead of a single supply model that might or might not work.
Wargames usually try to implement supply model, and few of them are able to make their AI handle it properly (their units stay in supply). None of them are able to use it to their advantage (trying to cut your supply).
I think this is the wrong place to try to do this. Again, this is just me speaking here. You're all free to spend the next 6 months to try to implement this single feature, I just don't think it's worth the effort.
If its a matter of improvising the system with some ingenuity, the rewards are worth it.
However, Paasky, if all of this fails, what might work, however micromanaged, is scripting the game such that NO unit can heal without a special unit that can heal others when in the same stack. The special unit would have to be regularly produced and would extinguish/expend itself every time it was used. That way, when your units are surrounded, they wouldn't have access to the healing/supply unit.
However, Paasky, if all of this fails, what might work, however micromanaged, is scripting the game such that NO unit can heal without a special unit that can heal others when in the same stack. The special unit would have to be regularly produced and would extinguish/expend itself every time it was used. That way, when your units are surrounded, they wouldn't have access to the healing/supply unit.
DarthCycle
Boardgame freak and 4X games enthusiast
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Nuh Uh: your idea would be a micromanagement hell. I strongly disagree.
It is obvious that you're really interested in a supply model. Please remember that modelizing the system is much easier than implementing it. Not to repeat myself, but regardless of the approach taken to simulate a supply system, the AI won't be able to use it effectively. So why bother?
The current AI is not even able to conduct successfull naval invasion and they removed airdrop capability from units probably due to terrible result after a lot of play testing. And here we are discussing the possibility to implement a supply model. I say: not doable.
So far, you're very creative and full of good ideas, please focus this energy on areas of the mod we can realistically achieve with success.
It is obvious that you're really interested in a supply model. Please remember that modelizing the system is much easier than implementing it. Not to repeat myself, but regardless of the approach taken to simulate a supply system, the AI won't be able to use it effectively. So why bother?
The current AI is not even able to conduct successfull naval invasion and they removed airdrop capability from units probably due to terrible result after a lot of play testing. And here we are discussing the possibility to implement a supply model. I say: not doable.
So far, you're very creative and full of good ideas, please focus this energy on areas of the mod we can realistically achieve with success.
Paasky
Good News Everyone!
I'm just talking about it, as a "I edited so and so many lines of xml today, uisn't that cool!" post isn't really exciting, is it?
Actually, I haven't done anything big during the last few days, as I've re-found Simcity 4
(check lowest link on sig).
But I do change a few numbers/texts here or there every day though. ATM largest things to do are:
That's not all, but the largest things yet to do are there.
Actually, I haven't done anything big during the last few days, as I've re-found Simcity 4
(check lowest link on sig).But I do change a few numbers/texts here or there every day though. ATM largest things to do are:
MAP:- Land Improvements
- City sizes
- City Buildings
GRAPHICS: - Edit some unit skins to have the national markings (until real units are made)
- Unit flags
- Flag leaderheads
XML: - Check that everything requires/gives what it should
- Building Costs
- All national units
PYTHON: - Unit spawning
- Timed & Random events
That's not all, but the largest things yet to do are there.
Paasky
Good News Everyone!
Grumble....
Maybe. Or, actually understanding what is possible within the scripting might open up a new door to a better system.DarthCycle said:
DarthCycle said:
How perceptive of you.
DarthCycle said:
Actually, I'm doing a case study on the general tolerance of the Civ community. I'm not impressed.
Yes, you are repeating yourself.
Why bother...? I might ask you the same. They are CREATIVE IDEAS, Mr. Darth knows best. And furthermore, if you REALLY must know (take this down), because, then, people who are actually interested in a playing WW2 at a regimental/division level can play it together.
Overall, supply is a strategic issue. While cutting off supply becomes a tactical one. If you are playing WW2 at a weekly or greater turn basis, and your map area encompasses more than a few hundred miles, its critical for purposes of simulation that some semblance of supply be established. Otherwise, you have a MESS, not a game. And, I can bounce my units behind your lines as long as I like supplied as they are through OSMOSIS.
Paasky
Good News Everyone!
General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett
"Now then, then now, now then, then now, then now, now! Then!"
DarthCycle: You're right about how hard a working supply system can, and is, to do. But I think it's a good thing to develop when the monotonous xml changeing starts to get too dull.
About the map. If I give it to someone here, could they place the cities? I have placed some of them (mostly W-Europe coastal) but perhaps someone would like to do a part of it?
Notice that if an island only has 1 city, it should still be named after a city (ie Cypros should be Nikosia, Crete should be Iraklio, etc). If possible, use the original name for the city (ie Roma, not Rome, Firenze, not Florence, etc). Every city has a culture of 1000 to make the borders larger and reduce the amount of neccessary cities.
DarthCycle
Boardgame freak and 4X games enthusiast
- Joined
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Here is the updated schema with the infantry units.
I introduced the concept of doctrine for infantry units. A doctrine can unlock more than one unit. For balancing reason though, these doctrine should be more expensive than other tech.
I will now work on the promotion/battalion system.
Paasky, please make the current map available so that we may take a look at it.
I introduced the concept of doctrine for infantry units. A doctrine can unlock more than one unit. For balancing reason though, these doctrine should be more expensive than other tech.
I will now work on the promotion/battalion system.
Paasky, please make the current map available so that we may take a look at it.
luciferius
Chieftain
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Congrats on 1000th post, paasky Similar threads
