KISS Files - Term 5

Interesting though Chamnix that you hatched in my head while reading your responce ...

I prefer KISS but it will not happen, we seem to be alligned with TNT ... I would have prefered to allign with Nuts actually ... they are stronger and share the same local luxury as KISS (wines).

Therefore the big question is ... which partnership is stronger in arms and technology ... MIA/TNT vs KISSNut

This just in to our team e-mail:

To MIA Diplomatic Corps:

We are unhappy, and frustrated, by your recent dealings with the "Dark Side" across the water. We can no longer guarantee continued peaceful relations beyond 470BC (T104).

During this period we will view any incursion of your troops or settlers north of The Line of Demarcation set forth in the attached map as an act of war and will respond accordingly.

Bede of KISS

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Here is the picture they attached:
* DELETED - till the moderators rule on this.


Looks like war is comming!

Man the battle stations!!

(and it's interesting to see how much of our territory they can see - and note where their units are watching for us... seems foolish of them to send us this juicy intel. And maybe against the rules? It's all territory we can see anyway, so I don't see the harm. But an odd move on their part.)

A cute responce in return

To the Idiot KISS

We have received your curt message and understand, but know this, that the same condition that you place on our units also apply to yours and that any KISS unit found south of the so-called Demarcation Line will be the catalyst for war.

We must also state that the only "Dark Side" originates not from abroad, but is the one you have embraced in your own hearts, it is the cancer that has corrupted and twisted the friendship that we once had. Your jealousy and hot tempers have led to this situation.

Beyond 470 BC (Turn 104), there will unfortunately exist a state of unease and paranoia between our two nations. We notice that you have claimed an unequal share of the continent, perhaps a straight line would be recognised as fair by all parties.

We also thank you for providing valuable intelegence and filling in some of the black on our maps

Feaurius III
MIA Foreign Department

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Damned those Idiots ... Removed reference to intel gleaned from KISS Demarkation Line map


We need to send a watcher on the eastern mountain

We must tell them that the line is too low in one area, because it is giving them nor land and we cannot allow this to happen.

I don't think their line is particularly relevant - I think we attack them, if not on 104 (or 105? Are we allowed to attack on 104?), then very soon after. We are clearly going to fight them sooner or later, and we will never have as big an advantage as we do now before they get Feudalism.

Was that letter sent?

I would delete the references to

We also thank you for providing valuable intelegence and filling in some of the black on our maps

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Talk about tipping our hand to the enemy!!!

But, in the interest of fairness and full disclosure, we should ask RM and GA to rule on the legality of that screenshot. Does it qualify as a map? Are we all guilty of unintentional espionage? I think we should get their thoughts on this before responding to KISS.

peter grimes said:

Was that letter sent?

I would delete the references to

Talk about tipping our hand to the enemy!!!

But, in the interest of fairness and full disclosure, we should ask RM and GA to rule on the legality of that screenshot. Does it qualify as a map? Are we all guilty of unintentional espionage? I think we should get their thoughts on this before responding to KISS.

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The letter has already ben sent according to Irongold. I really see no point because we did not ask for this screenie and they did n0ot have to do that. I also see no need to delete that reference because it give us more knowlegde about them when we did not ask for it.

No it has not been sent ... wanted to give you guys a chance to vent with dfferent responce options

Though your letter is excellent, and really captures the seething unease between our two teams, I wonder if it is a touch too antagonistic?

I won't have time today to devote to the team (convenient, huh?) but I will be able to check in briefly here and there. But for editting and analysis, I'm afraid I will be busy for the next 6-8 hours. Stupid work, making demands on my time!

I really hope we can get GA or RM to review this. I don't want us to get into a situation where we are guilty of a violation, even though we were 'forced' to look at the offending material. Let's just get their OK before we proceed. I will not PM them, as I have to go and work now

Don't we have a unit in their proposed territory? So we will need to ask them for us to move him outside of that zone, or should we disband him?

There is no way we are disbanding a unit just because KISS issued this now - I think the only unit we have in the north is our eastern galley. IIRC, they had a curragh in our territory as well. We will inform them that our unit is moving south.

Interesting that they left the eastern mountain S of their line - if they move a unit on top of that mountain, we should tell him to get lost.

KISS pretty clearly violated rule 1.6 by sending us this:

Definition: A team creating screen shots, drawings, or other depictions of any part of the in-game map before the requisite tech has been discovered.

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I don’t know what we are supposed to do about it, but it sounds like an issue for Captain Ybbor.

Yes it was very reactive ... to send a screenie which showed build orders and showed units and defenders and unexpectedly (to them) filled some gaps ... although I recall mentioning in chat that I could not see the lux town names ... wander if this was authorised and discussed ... certainly not to the degree that we do things ...


Interesting point about their ship ... please please pleeeease ... we should mention this to them ... I'm for a no nonsence reply .. they have given rules and set the tone of future contact ... so be it

However I must not fall into the trap of dismissing them in their arogance ... they have very good and experienced tacticians

As Chamnix mentioned ... KISS pretty clearly violated rule 1.6

here are important implications

1.6 - Invalid Map Trading

Punishment Level: Once – Orange (1-5 Turns), Repeat Offense - Red (2-20 Turns)

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The Punishment is 1-5 Turns (of Anarchy) ... This is actually a mid level offence as Yellow is the first.

I am in two minds ... but a rule break has obviously occured and GA or RM should take action ... I believe it is obviously unintentional, however a couple of extra turns of anarchy would be a bonus for us ... and thus karma is again balanced

The more I think about it ... I believe that moderators should take some form of action ... KISS should never have sent this screenie ... and while unintentional, it is unfair ... and ignorance is no defence as we have discussed this between us at least once in the past.

Here's what I just PM'ed to RegentMan and Ginger_Ale:

As you know, our relationship with KISS has been deteriorating for some time now. They have determined that KISS's interests would be threatened by our units crossing a 'Line of Demarcation'.

We have no quarrel with that. However, they chose a very curious way to show us this 'Line of Demarcation'. They actaully, as far as our cartographers can determine, sent us a map of their territory, with a yellow line drawn acrost! The screenshot seems to be inviolation of Rule 1.6 (Invalid Map Trading).

If you read our KISS Files thread (post 162 et seq.), you will see that we are uncertain about how this act impacts the game. Should they be penalized? On one hand, KISS lacks knowledge of Navigation; but on the other hand, they only disadvantage themselves by sharing this information with us. That's one of the reasons we don't see how an imposition of the Orange penalty would be effective.

Please advise us how to proceed. We have scrubbed the image from our posts, but many of us (including me) have seen the map. It is, understandably, very difficult to prepare for a conflict while 'pretending' that some troop positions aren't known.

To see the original image, log into our Gmail account:
mtdgMIA@gmail.com, password: b1ug1ak6usPo

As always, respectfully,
Peter Grimes

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I hope you all approve, as I was under the impression that this is the proper action.

X-posted ... have also sent a PM to the mods, posted through the Captain's Table

Here's a nugget from the cIV MTDG threads, where tubby was responding to a post of mine regarding the ideal numbers of teams:

Tubby Rower said:

I like Peter's idea of 5 teams. It's not such a mad rush to find a long-lasting friend. It would be quite interesting if it was 2 vs 2 with a single civ that could choose which side to be on.

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emphasis mine

Could this be an opening? I submit to the Foreign Minister that, if he's there in a chat, we open a line of communication with Tubby and massage his ego a bit.
I will simply note that Tubby has been getting more and more agitated.

Grinder is bothering me. We have temporarily lost sight of him, but he is almost certainly wandering south. We can defend Filiatra easily enough, but the problem is that Grinder can be positioned to threaten more than one town and make our eastern flank awkward, and I don’t think we want to give him free rein to do that. Unfortunately, we can’t stop him easily, but I’m wondering if he continues south if we could/should tell KISS that we view his excursion as an act of war.

First, can we do that? The admin ruling says that war cannot be declared even if individual units cross the illegal yellow line drawn by KISS, and the yellow line is void and cannot be reestablished. However, I think we should be able to tell KISS that we view units south of the jungle as an act of war. It would not require a map to do that, and we would certainly have been able to say that if KISS hadn’t sent an illegal map, and I don’t know that we should be punished for KISS’ actions. Obviously, we would want admin approval before doing it, but IMHO we should be allowed to.

Second, should we do it if we are allowed to? I don’t really think that we have the force to back it up if KISS ignores us. We probably don’t want to declare war early even if it is legal.

Is it worth bluffing to see if KISS calls us?

I don't know, I mentioned something similar a while ago ... can we not send a mounted unit down to check on things?