Should Civ2 source code be released?

I was curious what people thought about Civ2 as open source software.

It would mean that you could MOD the Civ2 program code and spread it around the net. It would also mean that those fixes you have always wanted to see made to your favourite game could actually become a reality.

Potentially, it could even mean more abilites for units, more events, basically an enhanced Civ2.

To those not satisfied with (or simply unable to play) Civ3, it could mean that Civ2 would include more options that until now were only available in Civ3.


Post your views and vote Yes or No in the poll.

Although I doubt it ever will be, I think it should.

I don't know...maybe the Civ 1 source code...but isn't it a bit early for Civ 2? It was only released about five years ago, I believe.

Of course it should be... What can anyone possibly have against releasing the source code of any game?

Addition: Wanting it is not the problem, getting it is.

Originally posted by CivCube
It was only released about five years ago, I believe.

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In the Civ 2.42 Game Options dialogue box it says October 1996, which is more like 8 years. I think someone mentioned that other games' from that time source code have been released.

As far as I know, that is the case --that also includes most RTS, RPS, and FPS game genres of that time. And, like Civ2 have a new version that uses a similar source code.

That's the beauty of older games: nobody cares if you MOD the program (in fact, sometimes it's even promoted)...with Civ2 as the apparent exception that also happens to be the one everybody is just itching to MOD.

Maybe it isn't being released because people are still buying Civ2:MGE (and occasionally ToT)...although even with the huge audience, it's doubtful there is significant profit involved.

And considering that Microprose (the people who designed Civ2) no longer exists, it seems only fair that the the source code be released.

I really doubt that many games from that period have had their source code released. Call to Power 2 was the first game I ever heard of that had its source code released. There may be a few more, but it's the exception, not the rule. If it were the rule, there wouldn't be so many abandonware sites.

Secondly, while Civ2 dates from 1996, the last version of it (Test of Time) is from 1999. That is of course also quite some time ago now, but still...

In any case, no source code will ever be released unless we fans actually get after it (see CtP2). So if we really do want it, I guess we should start some coordinated effort, involving CFC and Apolyton, and send e-mails to whomever may have the source code right now (e.g. Atari, Firaxis).

I agree with every single word of Mercator

It's not like Civ is this extremely complicated game. I'm sure interested people already know it's HEX intricacies on all sides.

We could start a petition.

Originally posted by yoshi
Maybe it isn't being released because people are still buying Civ2:MGE (and occasionally ToT)...although even with the huge audience, it's doubtful there is significant profit involved.

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Probably the biggest issue: some corporation is still making money off it and it's successors. "Trade secrets" and all that stuff...

And considering that Microprose (the people who designed Civ2) no longer exists, it seems only fair that the the source code be released.

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Two big mistakes: the original company does not exist, but it's copyrights were bought out by several others in succession, and the "line" is still being developed (rumor is Civ4 is in the works), so hanging onto the original versions protects their developers rights. Number two: there is no such thing as "fair"... if a buck can still be made...

So Firaxis, Atari or whoever bought the rights to 'Civilization.' Did they actually buy the rights to 'Civilization 2' or the general 'line?'

The history of the rights to CIV is long and complicated. You seem to be familiar with the facts so maybe you copuld post a brief summary of the related facts so that people who don't know or are not clear on the facts can find out what the real story is once and for all...or just post a link to that info (if available).

Originally posted by Mercator
In any case, no source code will ever be released unless we fans actually get after it (see CtP2). So if we really do want it, I guess we should start some coordinated effort, involving CFC and Apolyton, and send e-mails to whomever may have the source code right now (e.g. Atari, Firaxis).

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How do we go about this? Perhaps starting a petition here at CFC like archer_007 said would be the best way to convey the message.

I opened this poll in part to clarify this stuff so by all means, publicize any relevant information.


To people viewing this thread: you don't have to post, but at least vote on the poll (it takes like five seconds...on a slow connection).

Get people over at Poly to join in the petition also

Well, I guess the first step could be to have a look at the thread on Apolyton that got the CtP2 source thing started.

Then someone should write a draft of an e-mail (and assume it arrives at the desk of someone at the bottom of the "food chain" with little knowledge of computer games, company history or legal issues). Preferably someone living in the US, who has at least some vague idea of the technical and legal issues involved, and excellent writing skills of course.

That letter can then be posted in a new thread on both forums, so everyone can comment on it. Perhaps we can also inform Thunderfall and MarkG/DanQ, and see if we can make it an "official" site effort. Having their names on it might give it some more weight too. Or at least get a news item out of it, so we attract more attention.

When that's done, we can sign it and send it off to a bunch of e-mail addresses at Atari and Firaxis.



Oh, and about the company history... Microprose was first bought by Spectrum Holobyte, then by Hasbro Interactive, and then by Infogrames. Infogrames then changed its name to Atari.

Along the way, Sid Meier and Jeff Briggs created Firaxis, and Brian Reynolds created Big Huge Games.

Activision also bought (?) the right to use the name "Civilization", for its Civilization: Call to Power. But that was apparently only for one title, because Call to Power II doesn't have Civilization in its title anymore.

I don't really know what usually happens to the source code after a game has been abandoned. With all the people moving around and companies being bought, I'm pretty sure it must be either with Firaxis or Atari. Maybe one of them has the rights to the code, but the other actually has the code.

The rights to the name "Civilization" is something different entirely, I think.

Good summary, Mercator. I think MP really regretted letting Activision use the name for CTP, so I would not be suprised if they or their successors are much tighter about things now. They have a great name and line with stellar history and acceptance and vast future potential. There is also the question of whether some of the old code was continued in current and upcoming products. I still reuse code I wrote back in the early 90's, ported through multiple levels of VB or JS...

would be fun, I guess people would come with the weirdest mods then

Mercator cleared up the info concerning ownership but...Infogrames then changed its name to Atari?

Originally posted by Mercator
Well, I guess the first step could be to have a look at the thread on Apolyton that got the CtP2 source thing started.

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Could you post a link to that thread?


I'm not sure whether or not a petition will have any effect. It's just that I've noticed that whenever you give someone a bit of authority (let alone a lot of it) they have a tendency to become dictatorial. A while ago there was a story in the news that the city of Toronto (in Canada) decided to join all the surrounding municipalities into one large mega-city (a growing international trend that is primarily business-oriented and has proven to have a negative effect on the social infrastructure of these cities). Many residents of the city objected to the plan, but the government would not listen. So, people had a vote which was broadcasted on television. Millions voted not to go ahead with the plan. The government ignored the vote completely and actually criticized citizens for meddling in governmental affairs (how dare they) and having an 'illegal vote.'
These are residents of the bloody city who don't even have a say in something as big as that. Needless to say that city is now a meag-city. Considering this, what are our odds at actually being heard let alone get a reaction?

Nevertheless, I'd like to think that software companies aren't anywhere near as dictatorial as a governements.

BTW ElephantU, why do you think that the Civ2 some aspect code is being used in Civ3?

Originally posted by yoshi
Infogrames then changed its name to Atari?

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Yep. They did that somewhere between the release of Civ3 and Conquests

Could you post a link to that thread?

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The CtP2 source code project forum at Apolyton:
http://apolyton.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=213

And the thread that started it:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82253

BTW ElephantU, why do you think that the Civ2 some aspect code is being used in Civ3?

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Even though it is a very different game, it still has a lot of things in common. Most obviously the map grid, and the whole map/units/cities thing. Apart from that it probably also shares many things that aren't so visible.

Why start from scratch when you already have something to work with (if only just parts of it)?

On the other hand, Civ2 was already based off Civ1 code, and continuing to use age old code can result in really botched, ugly and inefficient code. So maybe they did start from scratch.

As I've looked back at "old" code I've noticed more and more how hyper-efficiently we wrote things back in the 80's and early 90's when we had so little memory and disk to work with. Today's code seems much more "bloated", relying on the compiler to optimize it, but that never seems to come close to the old bit-diddler hand-optimized stuff. As you mention, the background stuff is still there, particularly the map and nav stuff. Even when starting a project "from scratch" I still try to use old class libraries that I know work well. No sense "reinventing the Wheel"...

I still think the rights ownership issue will trump all others in trying to get Atari/Infogrames/whatever to cough up the old code.

Atari owns the source code and the rights, so we would need to get the source code from them. Let's start petitoning Atari.