(Israel v Palestine-Arabs) - USA

Ok with all thats been going on in the middle east i want to know what you all think about this. Yes wether you a american or not just give me your opinion. In the past we have backed Israel, i think we should continue to back Israel against Palestine. If we back Israel this will draw the other arabian countries into the conflict but we can handle them. Do you all think we should back Israel to help dissolve the conflict.
Earlier before 2000. The Penacostal's were all talking about God coming back for the milineium and well i went to some of their church services and they scared the hell out of me preaching on how God will come down and the 2 biggest countries would start a war with 1/3 of the world population being killed afterward. Me and my friend thought about it and figured that the 2 powers would be US and China and they would be fighting over the Middle East conflict with US backign Israel and China backing Arabs....pretty freaky

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Civilization God of War & Economic Prosperity
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Elevators always smell different to midgets

That whole scene over there is pretty darn heartbreaking! That truce or cease-fire, or whatever it is, is a sick joke. I keep thinking, "why doesn't one side or the other just back down. Don't they care about their children?" I know I'm thinking simplistically, but I get so frustrated about what is going on over there. I'm disgusted with both sides because I think that they both should work together and try much harder to bring peace to that area of the world, if only for the children and the future. I may be wrong, but I think that the Mideast crisis is going to plunge us into WWIII.

My question on this is: Who is it profiting to keep up this conflict? Does either side really want it to end?

Maybe someone with better knowledge on the subject can educate me on the situation and provide some food for thought.

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"Shake the world beneath your feet up"
--Johnny Clegg

I'm far from an expert on the situation so I'm going more on opinion here and little bits and pieces that I've read.

The Jews in Israel have a "never again" mentality. They're an opressed people and have been for thousands of years. They realize that the world has NEVER helped them and that it's up to the Jews to stick up for THEMSELVES NOW (the second world war being about "saving the jews" is mostly a fraud. We turned boatloads of jews away from our shores - we didn't care about them anymore then the German people did).

And this is why Israel tends to respond with overwhelming force when they are attacked. They FINALLY have a country to call their own and the means to defend it and they are NOT giving it up. EVER. Let's face it.. the only thing guarenteeing the safety of Israel (from it's Arab neighbours) is the fact that they are a nuclear power... it tilts the entire balance of power in THEIR favour.

The Arabs on the other hand tend to have an "all or nothing" mentality. They believe that ALL of Israel is rightfully theirs. the only thing stopping them from taking it is "da bomb" that Israel possesses (plus backing from the US)

This is why their can never be peace in the middle east. I mean even when the leaders agree on a cease fire there will ALWAYS be somebody on either side that screws it up - ALWAYS.

Me and Eli had a little thread going on this matter awhile back, and it is one of my specialist areas.
I am virtually certain that China will not get involved in the Mid East issue, and that it will not blow up into WW3. Wars are fought differently these days, and we probably have seen the last of the global conventional conflicts.

Israel does have a nuclear deterent, but this is not what keeps it free. Consider for a minute that Israel is only 40 miles across. Who would they nuke? East Jerusalem?
Any use of nuclear weapons in the region is improbable, as it would affect all parties.

What protects Israel is a combination of the IDF's status as one of the world's premier fighting forces, a slight technological edge, the defensive depth of the Occupied territories, and the backing of the Jewish diaspora, particularly in the US.

The avowed goal of the Palestinians is to drive the Jews into the sea, and kill them in order to repossess their land. Ribbentrop even promised the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem to destroy the proposed Jewish National Home upon German victory. This is not to say that the Palestinian civilians have not suffered, but certain elements have it in their interests to perpetuate an armed struggle, as it maintains their power base.

It is not as simple as just ending a conflict for the sake of children. It would be nice if it worked that way, but it doesn't.

I have no real ideological attachment to either side of the struggle, but I do have utter and complete contempt and hatred for the ignorant representatives of the loony left in my neck of the woods who run around with "World Wide Intifada" T-shirts without knowing the first thing about the issue, besides a little PLO propaganda.

It is very sad what is happening there, but there is no easy solution. In the other thread, I outlined the minimum requirements for Israel to keep it's sovereignty and defensive ability, and there is no hope that the Palestinians would agree to such terms.
The other Arab countries are a mixed bag. Egypt is unlikely to get dragged in again, Syria maybe, Jordan probably not, Saudi Arabia funds the PLO, Iraq would, and Iran would tacitly fund low intensity campaigns.

I will dig out the other thread, as it contains a lot of useful facts for this discussion.

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Whether you like it or not, history is on our side. We will bury you.
- N.S.Khrushchev

The Palestinians and Israeli Arabs are people who have mostly been stuck on refugee camps for the past 50 years, highly discriminated against, who have trouble getting any jobs. Its not surprising that they're revolting, and hate Israeli Jews, their main oppressors.

Yes, a lot are in camps and are the unfortunate casualties of war. But there are many Israeli Arabs living in Israel, and many Palestinians living all over the world.
You exagerate the situation slightly, methinks.
But, even if all of what you say is true, what can be done to change it, hmm? What is the solution? Send the Jews back to Poland, Ethiopia, and the former USSR?

The cause of the Palestinians having to go into the camps was the fact they lost the Israeli War of Independence, when they tried to remove the Israelis from the territories given unto them by the UN.

Sure, some of the Israeli Jews have oppressed Palestinians. But have all of them, and if not, should the other innocents bear the price of others sin.

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Whether you like it or not, history is on our side. We will bury you.
- N.S.Khrushchev

I'm in a hurry so I probably forgot some stuff.

Basically the problem started with the rise of the Zionism. When Jews decided that they want a country for themselves. The natural choice was Eretz Yisrael(Israel+Palestinian authority territories + Jordan + part of sinai + part of Syria).

From ~1870 Jews started to come to Israel, populate and develop the shore who was mostly not habited.
Bla bla bla, Arab mutinies, more immigration etc.
After WW2, in 1947, the UN decided to divide the country to two parts. Some say the division is fair, some say that the division is unfair. The Jews agreed to the Plan, the Pals dissagreed. War. Bla bla bla.
Many parts of the Pal state that was supposed to exist according to the plan were conquered, inhabited by Jews, and now are parts of Israel no one considers giving.
Also, ~700,000 Pals left/were kicked out of their homes. Now they are 4mil, and no one considers bringing them back to their homes but only to the territories of the Pal state that may/may not come.

All the rest i'll write later.

[This message has been edited by Eli (edited June 24, 2001).]

I wish someone would give em copies of the movie Braveheart, then maybe theyll get it over with.

What do you think of Obadiah Shoher's views on the Middle East conflict? One can argue, of course, that Shoher is ultra-right, but his followers are far from being a marginal group. Also, he rejects Jewish moralistic reasoning - that's alone is highly unusual for the Israeli right. And he is very influential here in Israel. So what do you think? uh, here's the site in question: Middle East conflict

Yay for thread necromancy...

Is there some sort of competition going on to see who can revive the oldest thread? Because this must be close to the oldest thread in the entire forum.

I didn't notice at first, and read comments such as Iraq would get involved in a isreali Palestinian conflict. This thread was before frigging nine leven.

dreadhead7 said:

I may be wrong, but I think that the Mideast crisis is going to plunge us into WWIII.

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Well he had an interesting thought.

RedWolf said:

The Jews in Israel have a "never again" mentality. They're an opressed people and have been for thousands of years. They realize that the world has NEVER helped them and that it's up to the Jews to stick up for THEMSELVES NOW (the second world war being about "saving the jews" is mostly a fraud. We turned boatloads of jews away from our shores - we didn't care about them anymore then the German people did).

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The US has helped the Israelis considerably over the past 50 years. The British helped them just as much before that.

And this is why Israel tends to respond with overwhelming force when they are attacked. They FINALLY have a country to call their own and the means to defend it and they are NOT giving it up. EVER. Let's face it.. the only thing guarenteeing the safety of Israel (from it's Arab neighbours) is the fact that they are a nuclear power... it tilts the entire balance of power in THEIR favour.

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The balance of power has been historically in Israel's favor since 1948. It's nuclear arsenal is simply insurance, as is the fact that any major threat would invoke US intervention in an instant.

Their current military doctrine is similar to the Americans' (or is it the other way around?): rapid escalation and disproportionate response. They try to deter future violence by replying with seriously amped up violence to most attacks. A few qassams land near Sderot and they kill a top official or two. The casualty counts depict this all quite well. This is also a serious impediment to the peace process, and more than likely counter-productive considering the nature of their enemy now.

The Arabs on the other hand tend to have an "all or nothing" mentality. They believe that ALL of Israel is rightfully theirs. the only thing stopping them from taking it is "da bomb" that Israel possesses (plus backing from the US)

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Plus the fact that they have no military chance against Israel, and most Arab states have come to accept that Israel isn't going to go away. It's been decades since there was any real war against Israel, save the Intifadas. Yes, this has been a stumbling block for the Arabs throughout this narrative, but they're hardly incapable of negotiating and compromising at this point.

Simon Darkshade said:

I am virtually certain that China will not get involved in the Mid East issue, and that it will not blow up into WW3. Wars are fought differently these days, and we probably have seen the last of the global conventional conflicts.

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Agreed. China is spreading its influence to Central Asia and its east and south east for now. Perhaps in ten or twenty years, though. A power vacuum would tend to draw a new regime into the region.

The avowed goal of the Palestinians is to drive the Jews into the sea, and kill them in order to repossess their land. Ribbentrop even promised the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem to destroy the proposed Jewish National Home upon German victory. This is not to say that the Palestinian civilians have not suffered, but certain elements have it in their interests to perpetuate an armed struggle, as it maintains their power base.

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It's hardly the avowed goal of every Palestinian to drive the Jews into the sea. Citing WWII correspondence as evidence of 2008 intentions is a little flawed, don't you suppose?

The other Arab countries are a mixed bag. Egypt is unlikely to get dragged in again, Syria maybe, Jordan probably not, Saudi Arabia funds the PLO, Iraq would, and Iran would tacitly fund low intensity campaigns.

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None of the powers are going to get involved again, save the insurgent groups. It would accomplish nothing, as Israel has shown itself time and again to be the superior military power, even when facing off against three and four opponents at once. Since 1979 there has been no real threat of Arab states attacking.

Simon Darkshade said:

The cause of the Palestinians having to go into the camps was the fact they lost the Israeli War of Independence, when they tried to remove the Israelis from the territories given unto them by the UN.

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This seems a very anti-Palestinian take on the 1948 war. The refugee camps were designed specifically for that: refugees that haven't been allowed to return to their homes since.

DNK, it's a seven year old thread! I doubt they're going to respond.

Oh, snap, I didn't even see that.

Well, I win by default!

I say we should passily support them by buying their products and so on. The Jews have a right to a country that is theirs. It is the only way they can be saved from all the anti semitism that they face anywhere else.

AL_DA_GREAT said:

I say we should passily support them by buying their products and so on. The Jews have a right to a country that is theirs. It is the only way they can be saved from all the anti semitism that they face anywhere else.

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And you see yourself as the saviour of the Jews, eh AL? That's really big of you.
I guess that's why you've got their flag as your avatar, eh?

jessiecat said:

And you see yourself as the saviour of the Jews, eh AL? That's really big of you.
I guess that's why you've got their flag as your avatar, eh?

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Not the savior, I would nominate the guys in 1947 for that title. I am a big fan of the Jews, I have allways admired them. I support their efforts to save themselves.