*Spoiler1* Gotm18-Celts - Full World Map

This is the first spoiler discussion thread for Gotm18-Celts.

Please read these instructions to make certain you DO NOT run afoul of the new spoiler rules.

Spoiler threads are divided to allow players to participate in spoiler discussions AFTER they have played their game far enough to pass a certain point in time and have already gained specific knowledge of the game.

For this game, every player must pass two tests in order to be able to view or participate this spoiler discussion thread. These two tests define a dividing line where knowledge and events prior to the line may be discussed but knowledge that you may have from later in the game may not be included.

For Gotm18-Celts:

• Absolutely must have full possession of the world map OR have submitted your finished game (This map visibility must include contact with all 10 Rival Civilizations and should include at least "identifiable visibility" of the northeast quadrant of the map) AND
• you must have entered the middle ages with one technology but should not discuss any aspect of the game beyond that point in time.

Information in this thread must be from BEFORE BOTH OF THESE EVENTS.

Here is a list of some specific dos and don'ts for this discussion thread:

1. You may discuss any game features/easter eggs that you discovered prior to the two cutoffs.
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5. If you think you found a "bug", PM first or email me at gotm@civfanatics.net to see if we can identify it better by some general methods rather than cluttering up the discussion of the play of the game.
   [/list=1]
   
   This thread is not intended to support discussion of technical issues such as game turn speed, lag or other issues you may have with the game. We will provide you with an opportunity to provide feedback on these issues later in the month. This thread should be reserved for game play and strategy issues.
   
   SUGGESTED MAPS, SCREEN SHOTS and DISCUSSION TOPICS:
   
   1) You may want to discuss a summary of the unit costs that you incurred to gain your knowledge of the world including any lost ships and other units who were sunk by various reasons. You might include any additional impact that the FOG or squids may have had on redirecting or impeding your exploration of the world.
   
   2) Minimaps of a certain style that look initially like mole tunnle but then becomer "flash and reveal" will be very interesting an enlightening in this game. If you followed the suggestions in the game setup instruction you should have save files to support these cool pictures. If you do not have the save files you may be able to reconstruct a picture of this activity by sketching in some arrows on a good minimap.
   
   4) you may also want to discuss specifically how you delt with any "barbarian" features of the game.
   
   Hopefully the intent of this discussion is clear, we want all the people who have discovered the world map or submitted their finished game to be able to discuss the process, timing, and excitement of revealing the world map and all the AI rival civilizations.
   
   Again we hope you are having fun and discovering new distinctive elements of this game.
   
   cracker

Glad to see the thread. I have a QSC to post, but .xls isn't supported. As soon as I convert it to .jpeg I'll throw it up. But in the meantime, I sent warriors in all directions and quickly discovered all 10 civs. I also noticed right away that the in the NW there were 2 volcanos on the same tile and each has a defense that was stronger than before. I had jokingly suggested to Cracker a couple of days ago to make the barbs stronger, but wish he hadn't. I was convinced there were some goodies hiding up there, but it turned out there was nothing but horded of barbs.
I love this map. I love the starting position. I moved the worker onto the hill, but decided to just build right on the original spot. Expect more from me once I've taken some screen shots, added them to my QSC, and converted to .jpeg..........

Unfortunately I have seen the barbarian dreck in the NE quadrant of the map.
There are a handful of unknown squares, but I have seen barb camp row.
I had to have multiple spearman moving from mountain to mountain to eat the absurd number of barbs up there. The good news is Rome settled cities up there that become magnets for the barbarians.

4000 BC to 1950 BC - The starting years with 3 contacts gained of Greece, Rome and China.

1950 BC to 1350 BC - This first war of the game is with Greece. I knew them being a neighbor would be trouble. Total loses are 2 Greek warriors, 2 Greek archer vs. 1 Celt archer. Peace is signed with Greece and we get Corinth for our trouble.

1325 BC to 90 BC - It was a very quite time with exchanging of contacts, tech, and map knowledge. At civs are known by 1000BC. I have never seen a more valuable map trading game, as I got techs for just wm during the initial map trading phase.
The important events of this era were:
Our one lucky hut gave us code of laws.
We start to find the funny names: LLeorycantores, Brempovia, Syrplebonum, Augustodurm,
270 BC saw the building of the Colossus.

70 BC to 10 AD - These are the early years of the new Celtic republic. It was a very quite time for the Republic.

Contact log:
2850 BC - First contact with Greece. Ouch, I really don't need the hoplite civ this close. We ship pottery and burial to get Bronze working and $9. This busts my thought of an early archer rush.

2750 BC - First contact with Rome. The second nearby civ is the Legionary civ. Early military action will be "interesting". We ship pottery and burial to get Alphabet and $10.

2430 BC - First contact with China. There is no reasonable trade possible.

1650 BC - First contact with the Iroquois, there must be more civs then I suspect on the "our" half of the map. No trades are possible.

1575 BC - First contact with France. They are backwards, and have nothing to offer.

1575 BC - We also somehow have contact with the Aztecs, even though I didn't notice one of their units. They are ahead of me, so I can't offer them a thing.

1550 BC - We acquire writing from Carthage for Iron Working. France gets Pottery and contact China for Contact Japan and $1. Alphabet goes to Japan for Mysticism and $8. Writing goes to China for $47.

1500 BC - First contact with England. They are backwards and clueless about the world. I simply sell them Mysticism for $60. I am able to further leverage the contact with selling the Aztecs knowledge about England for $49.

1000 BC - I gain the final contact with Egypt during a massive trading session. My world map proves extremely valuable on this world.

First I want to say thanks to RufRydr for the QSC spreadsheet. It helped a lot in typing mine up. I will give the highlights from my QSC.

4000 BC - I send worker to hill to scout for better settling position. The last GOTM influenced me to do so against my better judgement. Nothing is found so I settle Entremont on start position. I research Pottery first at 100%.

3150 BC - Pottery discovered. Set to Mysticism at 10%. I plan to go straight for Monarchy at min science.

3050 BC - We meet Rome to the east. They have Alphabet but won't trade it to us for Pottery and Ceremonial Burial. We also meet the Iroquois to the south. They have Bronze Working, Masonry, and Mysticism but we have nothing to offer them.

2900 BC - We give Caesar Pottery for Bronze Working and 7 gold.

2800 BC - Entremont completes granary.

2510 BC - We meet Greece. They have Masonry and Alphabet, we have nothing to offer again.

2390 BC - Entremont builds barracks. I did this because I planned to build escorts between settlers because of 1) low food city and 2) restless barbarians. I wanted to be able to upgrade these warriors to gallic swords later and I didn't want regulars. Alesia founded south of Entremont next to fishy (3 food in despotism). This will be our second settler factory.

2110 BC - Meet Carthage. They have Masonry and Alphabet. Meet China. They have Masonry and the Wheel. Trade Ceremonial Burial and 20g to Rome for Alphabet. Trade Pottery, Alphabet, and 84 gold to China for the Wheel. Trade the Wheel and Alphabet to Iroquois for Mysticism and 35 gold. Trade the Wheel to Greece for Masonry and 10 gold. Trade Mysticism to Carthage for worker and 8 gold. Research set to Polytheism at 10%. Horses spotted to the east, north of Rome.

2030 BC - Trade Mysticism and 66 gold to Greece for Iron Working.
Iron spotted in mountains to north. Should be easy to get before other civ's.

1990 BC - Capture 2 carthaginian workers who were wandering around where they shouldn't have been. The Carthaginians don't know where our empire is so there's no threat of attack. Volcano defeats our warrior. I didn't realize they had 2 defense this time!

1830 BC - Lugdunum founded on river/coast to north. This will be our Pyramids city.

1700 BC - Make peace with Carthage. They only had one other city and were insulted when I asked for it.

1625 BC - Camulodonum founded on hill/river next to dyes. We meet France. They have no techs for us and only 1 city. Probably got stuck on tundra. Meet Aztecs. They have 4 cities already but behind in techs. Trade Mysticism to Aztecs for 70 gold. Trade Alphabet, the Wheel, and 30 gold for 2 Egyptian workers.

1525 BC - Trade contact with Egyptians, French, Romans, and the Wheel to Carthage for Writing. Trade contact with France, Aztecs, Carthage, and Writing to Iroquois for Horseback Riding and 148 gold. Trade contact with France and Rome to Egypt for 30 gold.

1475 BC - Trade contact with Egypt and Rome to Aztecs for 25g. Rome demands contact with China, we give it to them.

1425 BC - Richborough founded SW of Entremont. Trade contact with Carthage, Writing, Iron Working, and Horseback Riding to China for Mathematics + 1g. High price but someone else would have done it if I didn't. Buy contact with Japan from Iroquois for 61g. Japan very backwards.

1400 BC - Figures I meet Japan the turn after I buy their contact!

1325 BC - Gems connected.

1150 BC - Greece claims the iron in the south. It's pretty far from their other cities and they already had iron next to Athens so I'm not sure why they did this. Oh well I'll get the iron to the north. Verulamium founded in east. Gergovia founded in west. I have a good core going now. I've met all civ's but one, where could the last one be?

1125 BC - China demands 42g, I tell him to shove it since he's so far away. He backs down.

Here are my "tunnels".


1025 BC - Trade Math, wm, and 49g to Iroquois for Map Making. Trade Map Making to Greece for Philosophy, tm, and 21g. Trade Math to Japan for wm and 21g. Trade Math to Egypt for wm and 3g. Trade Math and Philosophy to Aztecs for wm and 14g.

1000 BC - Trade Math to France for wm and 9g. We haven't met any barbs anywhere near our territory surprisingly. Not counting the volcanos in the north. I popped 2 or 3 huts total and got barbs from all of them.

Here is my Empire at 1000BC.


975 BC – Learn polytheism. Research set to monarchy at 10%.

690 BC – Aztecs build the Pyramids. Lugdunum switched from Pyramids to the Colossus. Glad I did it in a coastal city.

350 BC – Athens builds the Great Library.

280 BC – We finish the Colossus in Lugdunum.

130 BC – We discover Monarchy.

50 BC – Declare war on Greece. I had upgraded 16 gallic swords at this point and had a few more warriors to upgrade still. I delayed declaring war after monarchy for a few turns to get some marketplaces built to take better advantage of the GA.

30 AD – Athens and the Great Library captured.

50 AD – Horses captured.

110 AD – Dyes captured.

130 AD - Incense captured.

230 AD – Wines captured. Make peace with Greece, get 1 city near my core in the deal. My strategy in this game is to cripple the AI's then move on to the next one, rather than waste time chasing down every last one of their cities. I figure if I cripple them then I can take the last of their cities later in the game without any trouble.

This is where this spoiler ends for me. Here's my minimap at this point.

I think it is a fun map, and you really have to work hard for every resource and luxury. The AI had great starting positions, which I suppose was intended.

I have a msn group with pictures of this game. I checked the rules for this thread and made sure I did not say too much. Here is the link. When you are there, just press next for next picture and description.

My thought was to add more pictures to it later in this month, but I realize that isn't such a good idea. I will add the rest of my pictures to this public msn group when the submission date has past.

Edit: Here is the map just before I discover (or buy) Chivalry 360 ad.

4000BC After following the pregame discussion, and learning that the west water was indeed a lake I decided to move the worker sw to check out the other water. It too is a lake. So, I can settle in place and be on the lake, or settle sw and bridge the lakes. I really don't want to settle on a bonus grass, but if I settle here and build a bridge 2 sw I have maximum overlap. I decide to move the settler nw to decrease overlap with bridge city.

3950BC Found Entremont. Not much to speak of bonus wise, just a fish in the river. Decide to try the early happiness aproach that I keep reading more about and set lux to 20%. Decide to go for Mysticism at 20% (40 turns). This will build gold and hopefully I'll finish it before anyone else allowing me to trade it for a handful of cheaper techs. Plan to build 4 warriors and head then s,e,w and then n.

3500BC I bump lux up to 40% so 2nd citizen will be instantly happy.

3450BC Entremont expands, and 2nd worker switches to fish. This is 3 food (I forgot we were on a lake and that the fish would make a nice food bonus) allowing Entremont to grow a bit faster.

3250BC South warrior pops a hut for Pottery.

3100BC 4th warrior done, start settler.

3000BC Lux at 40% makes 3rd citizen content.

2950BC We are 2nd on the top 8 wealthiest list with 55g. (England is ahead of us) Contact Iroquois (in their boundaries). They have BW and Mysticism, second city, wines, and at least 2 workers. Too late to worry about tech choice (20 turns to go for Mysticism for me).

2900BC Contact Carthage, they have BW, Masonry and Alphabet, only one city, but at least 3 workers. Looks like the bonus workers went to our rivals? Trade Burial for BW + 10g.

2800BC Just an interesting note here, my minimap at this point looks like a Celtic cross.

2800BC

2750BC Finish settler, send to hill on river to north and start granary.

2710BC East warrior pops hut for Masonry.

2630BC Discover 2 pair of volcanoes to the north, stronger than before (2 defense, 3 hit points). Not even going to try with a warrior.

2590BC Found Alesia and start a temple to get the gems inside border. Discover cows to the east.

2470BC West warrior runs into a large nw/se lake.

2430BC South warrior spies border of Greece.

2350BC Contact Greece, trade Masonry and Burial for Alphabet + 20g. They have 2 cities. North warrior pops a settler! Move south to get closer to home.

2270BC Spy Rome's border not far from Entremont! Discover Greece and Iroquois are at war.

2230BC Granary done in Entremont, start settler. Contact Rome, they have 2 cities, 10g and no new techs.

2150BC Found Lugdunum with popped settler 2N, 8NW of Entremont amongst 4 BG and outer ring wheat. Spy China border.

2110BC Finish Mysticism and start Polytheism with the same hope as before at 10% science.

2030BC Contact Aztecs, they have 4 cities and Iron Working, but WAY too expensive.

1990BC China contacts us, they have 4 cities and want to trade wheel for alphabet. I ask for 5g also. Etremont produces settler, send s,w,w. Alesia finishes temple.

1950BC Found Camulodunum. Contact France, they have 3 cities, an extra wine, and need Pottery and Mysticism. Notice that the Iroquois have destroyed Sparta and Greece is down to 2 cities. Also note Iroquois is dead even with us in tech and have 4 cities. They must be trading and hut popping too. And of course they have horses right next to their capital (how conveeeeenient!).

1830BC Alesia expands, road on gems almost done.

1790BC Discover the first (and only that I saw) mainland Pictish warrior (named Zhou).

1750BC Zhou attacks French warrior and dies. Trade Mysticism + 55g to Aztecs for Iron Working. Note that iron is 8 or 9 tiles to the north and south. South is a tile closer and on a hill instead of mountain. Looks logical, but then I'm roaded halfway to the north one already.

1725BC Gems connected. Decide that the north iron will be better choice.

1650BC Contact Japan, they have 4 cities, and extra spices and need alphabet and mysticism. Note Greece has writing, trade contact with Rome and Egypt plus 62g for it. Trade Contact Rome to Aztecs for 46g. Trade contact France to Egypt for 22g. Iroquois have horseback, but too expensive right now.

1625BC Notice 3 Carthage warriors headed my way. Entremont settler heads s,se,se toward east end of lake.

1575BC Found Richborough se of Entremont.

1500BC Pop rush warrior in Lugdunum to counter Carthage threat.

1475BC Start temple in Lugdunum.

1350BC Still worried about the 3 Carthage warriors up north, but they seem to be exploring and contemplating the volcanoes.

1325BC Entremont produces settler, starts settler.

1275BC Trade Writing for Horseback + 6g from China.

1250BC Found Verulamium, start temple.

1200BC Trade contact Egypt to Rome for 10g getting them to Cautious.

1175BC Entremont produces settler, start settler.

1150BC Alesia Produces settler.

1100BC Found Gergovia, start temple.

1075BC China demads 30g tribute, I refuse since they are far away and they declare war. Found LLeorycantores, start worker. Build embassy w/ Aztecs but they want too much to be an ally. Note that they now have math, philosophy and map making. Build colony on north iron, guard with 2 warriors.

1025BC Entremont done settler.

1000BC At the end of the QSC period I'm in 3rd place on the score, at war with China (in 2nd). The Aztecs are in 1st. Here's my area at this point:

1000BC


975BC Finish Polytheism one turn too late for QSC due to 1st turn settler move. Start Monarchy, still at 10% science.

950BC Trade Polytheism for Map, Philosophy, Math, 9g and territory map from Iroquois. Trade Poly for ally against China, territory and 7g from Aztecs. Trade world map with France and then Japan.

775BC Trade Polytheism for Literature, 18g and maps from Japan.

My notes pretty much stopped here, my long term goals are leaning towards a diplomatic solution. I have pretty good relations with everyone, a decent chunk of the world and I'm on par with tech. There's only one scientific civ so I expect I should be able to keep pace and maybe go ahead once I build Libraries and Universities. I expect after Monarchy to switch from slow pace to fast pace since Greece will be getting their free tech soon.
And finally, here's my area just before I learn the first middle age tech.

I liked your site el_kalklylus.

I also had trouble with city placement. I intended at the beginning of the game to take the time to make a dot map but I never did. Half because it slipped my mind, and the other half because I never really explored around my capital much so most of it was in blackness anyway. In the end though I wasn't terribly disappointed with my city placement.

A leader in 370 BC jeez. I've never gotten a great leader before chivalry. I disagree that hurrying the pyramids was a bad choice though. That wonder is invaluable on this map. The hanging gardens isn't nearly as good.

Nice job getting to the barb island early. I felt bad that I was missing out on that fun little aspect of the game, but I just didn't want to suicide warriors on the volcanos and stuff. The AI sure didn't mind though so they were marching through my territory to attack them. After I got gallic swords I was too busy fighting Greece to deal with barbarians.

The 1 turn revolution is because the Celts are religious. Probably the best thing that being religious gives you.

Ouch bad luck with the barb uprising. Like I said I didn't find any barbs at all near my territory. I was surprised because as I mentioned in the pregame thread I figured restless barbs would be a huge pain. I made sure to keep all my cities defended and it turned out to be for nothing.

@Xevious - Wow the French really took control in your game. The Aztecs did in mine, it looks like the French took some Aztec cities in yours? The Aztecs also built the Pyramids in my game which put a big target on them, too bad they were so far away and I would have to battle through hoplites and numidian mercs to get to them. Real nice of Cracker to stick the 3 civ's with 3 defense ancient age UU's next to us, and the Iroquois mounted warrior is no better! I also liked the fact he only put one scientific civ in so that using 1.21 wouldn't be a big advantage.

We also got in the same situation with China. They demanded gold from me too but they backed down when I refused. I wonder why they declared war on you. Did you have a weak military? Or it could have just been luck.

Was able to get the entire map minus the barbs in the QSC period and didn't get to see the barbs until well into the Middle ages. Saw the barb camps and dollars signs but didn't have any strong coastal cities to get there.

Tech pace was fast as to be expected. Iroquios really ruled in tech, must be do to the expansion trait as they are the only ones besides England in this map.

Amazingly the maps did fetch techs for me as well. I had only one war upto this point and an early Golden age. Beat down Rome as they are the weakest in the region. Carthage, Greece and Iroquios all have UU in the Ancient era that are much more difficult to deal with than Legionary, not that they are push overs either. The Gallic Swords have served a purpose. War did delay my revolution to Republic though and I didn't make wonders a priority that is probably a mistake.

One thing I did notice early on is getting ahead in tech is going to be difficult for now I am content to be the broker and use tech for lux management .

Hotrod

Agree that Rome is the weakest neighbor. They didn't even hook up their iron in my game until let's just say way way later than this spoiler ends. They would have been a nice easy target, but I was more focused on getting luxuries and capturing the Great Library and the Pyramids as my first objective and that involved driving my way towards the Aztecs, rather than messing around with the Romans to the east.

Thanks Shillen.
370 bc is the earliest I have gotten a leader. I also had a leader 360 ad, so I was very lucky. The problem was not building Pyramids or not, but Forbidden palace or not. I had been working on pyramids in Alesia, but built the Pyramids in Rome instead. So Alesia changed production to Forbidden palace, which I think was a stupid decision. Sorry for the confusion, I am not a good writer.

The AI killed those volcanos if you wanted to go there later. I followed one AI warrior to the north with a warrior, and the AI warrior was killed later by hordes of painted men and horsemen, and so was my warrior. So I tried to reach the other side of the barbarian land with a trieme (that you saw on the picture). There was more camps to see, but I forgot to make a screenshot.

The one 1 turn revolution is the reason why I hang my head in shame. I should have known.

@Xevious

975BC Finish Polytheism one turn too late for QSC due to 1st turn settler move. Start Monarchy, still at 10% science.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't be so sure about this. Moving your settler NW brought the fish into workable range. This probably sped up your science if anything. I also finished polytheism 1 turn after the QSC period, oh well. I'd say moving the settler NW 1 tile was probably the best move, but based on luck only. If only moving my worker to the hill revealed the fish, I would have moved. Any bonus food in the capital is a huge bonus, even if it's just 1 food. The extra gold is very helpful as well.

Sorry, I haven't typed up my QSC yet. I will talk more about that later. Right now, I'm so excited about my culture city, Alesia.

I must be missing something, but how is your city producing that much commerce? You're not in a Golden Age or the grasslands would be producing 2-3 shields instead of 1-2. It seems like you have the Colossus but it's not a coastal city. Care to clue me in?

edit: Oops that was pretty stupid. You're in a republic. I was comparing to my city and I was in monarchy. I think it's past my bedtime.

Like others I moved my worker on the hill to explore for better grounds... didn't see anything really interesting so founded the capital on the starting position. After cranking out some warriors to explore the area I build a 2nd worker early.
My 2nd city was build to the northeast of the capital where I saw two cattle plain tiles...in the meantime I had send my workers ahead to build a road and irrigate the cattle. That city became my settler factory.
I wanted to take care of the romans before they could hook up their iron, so went for an early war and finished them off in the early ADs. Along the way I had a great leader which I used for the Great Library. After taking care of the Romans I focused on infrastructure and development for a while... but let the AI fight eachother. In my game France was getting big, so I declared war on them and allied up with their direct neighbours. After 20 turns I made peace with them without engaging into battle with them during that entire war They were weakened though and soon to be finished off by the AI. I did the same trick on the chinese who were becoming the new world power.

-Dimy

Interestingly, the Greeks built the Great Library in my game, too.

I founded on the starting spot without even checking out if the water to the south was salty, started pottery at max and built 3 warriors for exploration. One of them popped another one from a hut so I met every one pretty quickly - in fact, basically everyone had contact with everyone the turn after writing was discovered.

Entremont built a granary after the warriors and then became the big settler producer, while my second city (to the northeast) first produced the spear escorts, slipped another granary in and then took over the settler prodcuing role. I grabbed the iron to the SW with my fourth city. My third city, on the southern lake, also built 1-2 settlers after it got a granary.

After pottery and acquiring alphabet with trade, I went on min sci gambits for mathematics and then currency. The first one failed but was saved by getting philosophy from a hut. The English beat me to currency but since no-one could afford first-civ prices, I was able to clean up all the other ancient age techs with it (except for the government techs). The money gained by the trading and the min sci then went to a Gallic sword upgrade - I had 12 when the wars started.

My first target was Greece, mostly because I wanted their luxes. Incredibly, I had completely failed to notice that they had the Great Library so that was a welcome surprise when Athens fell. I took over 4 cities in all, which was enough to turn Greece into a non-player. Gallics vs hoplites is not very funny though.
Realizing this, I decided to make war on Rome before they got their iron online (they only needed a border expansion, but when does Caesar ever build culture ?) and to take the horses that they stole away from me. I went in with not much more than 5 gallics and 2 archers at first (4 more from Greece came in later to help), but that turned out to be enough to take just about all of Rome - their resistance was that weak.
Although my original intention had been to build the FP in Greece, I changed my mind and started producing it in the city of Rome instead. Since I had a few Elite Gallics left over, I planned to declare war on Greece again to create a Leader for the FP.

My Golden Age was largely wasted in despotism; halfway through it though monarchy came in from the captured Library and I revolted (sure enough, republic came in the turn after we became a monarchy - I didn't revolt again). When feudalism came in after that, I set Entremont to building Sun Tzu. It did use some of the GA bonus and is much bigger than its rivals, so I expect I to get it.

I did send 2 warriors and an archer to die against the volcanoes, then gave up. Carthage sent several archers and got whatever you get for defeating them. I did get a city on one of the islands as a peace concession from Rome, but had to abandon it lest the barbarians plunder my treasury. I hope to send an expedition to the other island sooner or later, but for now, I can't spare the units.

So at the end of the allowable reporting, my empire is in fine shape and will be unstoppable once the FP comes online. I have started to build as many horses as possible before Chivalry comes in to do another mass upgrade - not having to run science until education sure helps. It was a nice touch to have the civs with defense-3 ancient age UU's next door - otherwise the empire would be bigger still. And that while my play verged on the sloppy at times.

I must have been lucky cause my gallics cut through Greek hoplites like butter. The times they did lose they usually retreated so very minimal losses. The only tough towns were the ones founded on hills. Although that was about half of the Greek towns. You're making me think I should have taken the time to take out Rome early on. If it only took 2 turns it might have been worth it, especially since my FP was being built very close to them. Good idea building the FP in Rome instead of Greece btw, Greece had terrible land in comparison.

My 2nd Monarch game (my first was terrible), since I can win easily on Regent now...and I was just wondering, did everyone have as hard of a time as I did staying even remotely close on the tech race in the Ancient era? I met the Iriquois I think it was (it was purple) after about 5 turns, and they had 4 technologies ALREADY! (In other words, I had no tech that they didn't have, and they had 2 techs that I didn't have! So they had both of the ones we start with, and 2 others!)

Also, how is it possible to even think of getting any of the early wonders?! My kudos to those who could!

Anyway, I have now STARTED to catch up on the tech race, and am "only" behind by 3 (at least, I can only see 3 from the trade screen...I may be behind by more, but they are prereqs so I can't see them from the trade screen). In Regent, I was ahead by 3 or so by this time normally! ("this time" referring to 2nd Age (Middle Ages), with my first tech)

The bummer is they are ALREADY building Sistine Chapel and Leo's Workshop.

Anyway, am I just a bad player at Monarch level, or is everyone else experiencing tech problems to at least some extent?

Sam

I was behind techs after meeting Rome, Iroquois, and Greece. Iroquois probably popped a lot of techs from huts since they're expansionist. As my warriors explored westward though and I made contact with carthage and china I was able to trade into tech parity. Then as I made contact with more civ's I was able to trade and stay with the tech leader while leaving several other civ's behind in techs. I got polytheism first and monarchy first even at 40 turns/tech so at that point I was actually ahead in techs. Then I captured the great library and turned science off and let them research for me.

Basically the key to keeping up on techs is getting contacts and controlling the trades. Also research techs the AI doesn't go for. e.g. polytheism, monarchy, mathematics, currency. Even with science at 10%, if you get enough contacts and control who gets what, then you can easily keep up on techs. I didn't even pay gpt for a single tech, I only payed gp for a couple but usually when I did that I ended up getting more gp back than I spent by selling that tech to the other civ's. One important thing to remember is the more civ's that know a tech, the cheaper it becomes. A lot of times it's not worth it to buy a tech when only one AI has it. Other times though you can pay a lot for that one tech, then trade it to other AI's for a bunch of other techs, and it is worthwhile. You just need to always pay attention to what techs each civ has and what they don't have.

The Romans ARE very weak, I agree. I'm about the only civ more pathetic than they, according to Theucidites They will definitely be my first target.

I feel pretty happy with the way I was able to expand (usually, that is my weak point), but is it usually wise to build all those cities so close together as Xevious has? It seems like that'd give a boost for a bit, but end up hurting you in the Industrial Age.

Sam

Good ideas I guess I need to find out more about what techs the AI doesn't value Drat, and I almost made a run for Monarchy right away, too! Oh well, next time I like your ideas for the tech race. Looks like this game is a loss for me most likely, but a very educational loss, and I'll play it through to the bitter end and probably learn a lot more (and submitting losses is better than no submission at all) Wins don't teach you nearly as much as losses (except maybe your first win on that level, or first win of a certain type), so I appreciate the critique to help me out next time

To help me out, as the spoiler threads become available, could people let me know what their best research paths are? I research too much like the AI. So for now, what research paths did people take to get to whatever their first tech was in the MA?

Sam