*Spoiler2* Gotm20-Spain - Full Map+Mag+Grav

This is the Mid Game spoiler discussion thread for Gotm20-Spain.

Again take a few moments to read this introduction carefully to make certain you DO NOT run afoul of the new spoiler rules.

This is the second spoiler thread to support discussion of Gotm20-Spain. If possible, you should have already summarized your ancient age progress in a short report in the Early Discussion thread for this game.

For many players the game could end in this era.

Every player must pass two tests in order to be able to view or participate this spoiler thread. These two tests define a dividing line where knowledge and events prior to the line may be discussed but knowledge that you may have from later in the game may not be included.

For Gotm20-Spain:

• you must have full map visibility of the entire world map plus contact with all 10 rivals (or their remains). AND
• you must have discovered Magnetism and The Theory of Gravity (or already submitted your game) but you may not discuss any feature of the industrial age with respect to technologies, wonders, or resources. (Discussing or hinting about locations of Coal, Oil or Rubber will be cause to have to appear before the inquisition and be purified by pain.)

Information in this thread must be from BEFORE BOTH OF THESE EVENTS.

You may discuss continuations of Calvalry or Conquistador/Missionary warfare that may include encounters with riflemen defenders of you enemies but essentially this thread is intended to be a discussion of the Middle ages and nothing beyond that point in time.

We are again particularly interested in discussions of any encounters that you may have with other civilizations and how they may have advanced in technology and/or upgraded units into the offensive and defensive units that could be available in the middle ages.

Also help us to understand how and where you decided to place your Palace and/or Forbidden Palace to support the ending moves of your game.

What were your impressions of the behavior of the other Civilizations during this phase of the game? Try to touch on all the surviving civs and what you thought they were doing.

If you are playing the Conquest game, how did you use the Galleass unit and what if any effect did it have on your game?

There are several Easter Eggs that should have appeared for you during this phase of the game.

Have fun!! Again that's what this game is all about.

The middle ages of this game was one of the most successful/enjoyable Civ games I've ever had! Playing Ptw 1.14f (first game on it) at Conquest level.

Here we go:

The Zulus attacked me just after ancient age ended, I bribed a few others to attack them. They bribed everyone else. Continent has been at on/off war ever since. In the confusion I horseman rushed the French and took them out. Upgraded to knights during the campaign and had my first use of the entertaining MDI, mostly upgraded from warriors. Seized the Collosus and some wines. I've been at peace with everyone for some time, but they're all busy waging wars...

Around invention time 4th suicide galley survived two turns in ocean squares to meet the Japanese. Met the rest of that continent. Did not introduce everyone until navigation was discovered. The Iraqois were the only people to demand communications. They backed down.

Due to the trading lessons learned from this site, I managed to make a fortune. Buying as common tech on one continent, sell as monopoly on the other. At times over 1/3 of my economy was from other civs gpt. Built a large treasury and cash rushed improvements/upgrades and then started my own 100% research, while still making money Sold/traded most of those techs away for more stuff. Managed several wonders (Bachs, Sistenes, Smiths and Newtons) had an infrastructure building golden age.

Even post navigation, the Americans and Japanese lack Iron, the Iraqois lack horses. This means I'm hopefully going to have extra luxuries and a solid source of income for a while... Think the Japanese/Iraquois value these even more as they need them for their UU's.

Ended the medieval times as the tech/power/score leader. A position I would never have considered possible on a deity game... wonder if it will stay that way? The Indians, Americans, Aztecs and Japanese are fairly close in terms of tech. Everyone else behind them. Centuries of continual warfare has taken it's toll on the zulu. Their empire is very large, but they trail everyone by 5-6 techs...

The only thing I'm lacking is a forbidden palace. Normally I would have built one early on. But I havn't really needed the economic boost. Held off building it originally in case I found a decent sized/unoccupied 'new world'. Looking to seize more territory and leader rush it, so it can be a long way from my capital and yeild maximum number of cities benefit.

Just wish I'd given the open version a try. Although a lot of that confidence has come from this site/this GOTM.

I'm still alive (somehow) and it's been rather interesting.

After fending off the world from destroying me, I made pretty good friends with the Turks. The Indians were wiped out during the first World War by the Zulu and Celt. I was sad to see my friend go but I had the Turks on my side.

After about 7 Galleys, I made it over to the new world. Found Americans. I had seen there culture borders from a previous trip, but the galley sunk the next turn. So I bought the rest of the communications from Lincoln and then sold them off to the rest of the world. I should have sailed around and found the others since the other "Old World" powers didn't really feel like sailing across at that point.

I had my eye on the French for awhile and decided they must go. After 3 wars with them, I finally get far enough down to Paris. It falls and I rejoice. At 780 AD, France becomes no more.

I left the middle ages at 1200AD with World War II being in full swing. The Aztec decided to take on the mighty Zulu and actually gained a city in the old world. the Iroquois were at constant war with the Americans (did you do anything to help that Cracker? ) The Turks were reduced to a few cities and fearing that the Zulu would come running across their lands to get me, I made my defense zone which I'll show at the end of this post. Because of this line of guys, I was able to survive many Zulu attacks. I pays to have the Turks still alive.

I never really did use the gallass. The English just loved man-o-wars and were always bombarding my northern town. I took Dover from them and killed about 15 units. Then gained Dover back but I was able to get a great leader out of it who rushed the rest of the Forbidden Palace. (which is in Paris).

I'm still here and thankfully I am holding my own. I'm way behind in techs because no one will trade with me at all. I tried to give the Celt's all of my gold for 1 coin and they were all pissy about it.

My middle ages consisted of trying to build my infastructure and continuing to trade money and luxuries for tech.

This whole period consisted of continuous warfare on my continent. India was wiped out and the Celts reduced to just a few cities. Except for a brief war with the Ottomans I was able to stay out of war for almost the entire age. Towards the end of the middle ages I was in a brief war with France. I captured and torched one of ther cities on the inland sea where the jungle ended. I built my own city in the rubble. They made peace after that.

I don't know who found the "new world" first. The first I knew it had been discovered was when Japan contacted me. Soon after I was able to trade with all of the new world civs. I took advantage of the SR deprivation in the new world to get world maps, money and some tech. But I never even came close to the other civs in tech. Spain was the last civ to leave the middle ages.

:upyours:

1.21

The Middle ages were a blur ! I survived the onslaught of the barbs - lost all my gold and made it to the Middle ages unscathed.

My war with France was short lived capturing only 2 cities. But soon after I was able to make contact with my first suicide galley. It was my second galley, the first get eaten by squid .

I made contact with Japan, used my maps for tech trades and contact trades keeping both continents seperate. In the end I had a full map tech parity up through invention and gold coming in. The map is huge. I turned off my research completely and haven't built any libraries and don't intent to. Cash is king. I have slowly been building gold and can afford to buy anything from Japan, the clear tech leader and trade it around for gpt to everyone else.

Soon after conact was made the Zulu has demanded contacts with the Iroquios and I refused starting a war. I pulled in India and Celt for a few pennies and started moving my knights via a ROP with France. Took 3 cities and got a 4th as reperatations. All the while buying and selling Japan's tech. I got my firts GL from the Zulu war and used it to rush Bach's in my core. I don't want to worry about happiness on my continent.

Around the same time peace was made Japan had started on Magellen's (having Navigation) and I knew Contact was close. I traded what I could to get back to tech parity with the other continent. Japan was running away with tech and it was only 300 AD.

I traded up to Military Tradition and built up an army of Cavs to take out England. I still had reminant of deals with France and decided to let Celts and Zulu divide up the Indians. England was mine. I did pull the Celts and Zulu in for good measure and to avoid a dogpile. My Cavs were no match for the English cities capturing 5 in the first wave. I ran out of gas but did manage to get a conquistador victory and started my golden age. I did get one GL in a failed attempt to capture the London capital. England was down to 2 cities when peace was made. The GL rushed Smiths and further propelled my Golden Age aided economy. At its hight is was running 0 lux. and 0 Reseach pulling in +740 gpt. More than enough to pay my way up to Magnitism and ToE.

I was building cavs like crazy and waiting for the last of the French deals to expire. In the meantime the Celts cleared out the Indians and the other continent was about to explode. Nationalism came for Japan around the time I finally purchase ToE and he was ready to finaly expand his first taget The Aztecs.

The other civs:

France: Weak and about to be taken out by the Spanish

Zulu: Moderately strong, Large and spread out

Celts: Strong, laking Horses . Powered by SunZu.

Japan: Science very strong, military moderate. Powered by my iron trades

America: Getting too big for his britches - lacks horse and iron

Aztecs: Moderate in tech and military for how long no one knows

Iroquios: Tech very weak-Trading outdated tech for gems.

England: Poor start lead to her becoming a 2CC at the era change.

Ottomans: Easily destroyed by zulu in the late Ancient age

India: Destroyed by 3 different wars by zulu and or celts strating in the Ancient age and continuing through the middle ages.

Who know what the future may bring?

Hotrod

Aaaaahhh! I was the first to get to the new world but looks like I completely wasted it! My very first suicide galley made it across the waves and spotted both Japanese and American borders. I traded contact with France+ Lit for contact with Aztecs+tech with the Japanese and lit+France for contact with the Iroquois+another tech with Abe.
Next I went to the civs on my continent to see what I could get for my wm plus new contacts... end result is I caught up in tech and gained 400gold plus great relations with everyone else. I was feeling pretty smug until I read the posts in this thread... I hadn't realised the benefits of keeping the two continents apart until now!
So quick question... should Ihave withheld contact with the new world for a while (at least till the Zulu demanded it.. whimper!) or was what I did to go from second to last in tech to parity better?

Playing conquest class btw.

Originally posted by mabellino
Aaaaahhh! I was the first to get to the new world but looks like I completely wasted it! My very first suicide galley made it across the waves and spotted both Japanese and American borders. I traded contact with France+ Lit for contact with Aztecs+tech with the Japanese and lit+France for contact with the Iroquois+another tech with Abe.
Next I went to the civs on my continent to see what I could get for my wm plus new contacts... end result is I caught up in tech and gained 400gold plus great relations with everyone else. I was feeling pretty smug until I read the posts in this thread... I hadn't realised the benefits of keeping the two continents apart until now!
So quick question... should Ihave withheld contact with the new world for a while (at least till the Zulu demanded it.. whimper!) or was what I did to go from second to last in tech to parity better?

Playing conquest class btw.

Click to expand...

By witholding contacts you can create a long and profitable period of trading. It would also give you the power to slow the tech pace down. I combined that with the practice of sponsoring warfare on my continent all with the aim of slowing the AI down until I had the ability to build armed forces of sufficient size and quality to seize my continent.

If you play it the other way, the rate of tech advance will go through the roof. This might be good if you are going for an early diplo or space race win. But you still need to expand for a good score so in this case it would have to be early expansion. Otherwise you'll run into riflemen early which makes for tough warfare.

It is quite possible to trade effectively while holding contacts. It just requires that you check each civ each turn and take advantage of your opportunities. This can be tiresome, but I did it and would just for the cash you can get for trading maps.

Before all is said and done we are going to see some spectacular conquests for the diety level.

Edit: To add further, since the New World had only 4 civs to the 7 in the Old, it was a forgone conclusion that they would be behind on tech until you allowed contacts. If you then go to Navigation on the fast track you can have a monopoly on their luxuries and be the sole source provider for iron, horses and later saltpeter.

At one point I was raking in over 700 gpt (mostly from trade as I had not expanded).

So quick question... should Ihave withheld contact with the new world for a while (at least till the Zulu demanded it.. whimper!) or was what I did to go from second to last in tech to parity better?

Click to expand...

I was able to use my map to gain enough gold to allow me to buy my way into tech parity. I was actually getting gpt for my Maps. I held out until Japan started Magellen's before trading contact. It wasn't as great a windfall but allowed me to play both sides for gold. Japan was the scientific power and traded freely with Aztecs and Abe. I bought most techs at 3rd or 4th and sold them to the rest. Pulling a few 2frs. I had a few failed 40 turn gambits, democracy, Printing Press to name 2.

The Zulus demanded contact and that started a war.

[edit] This didn't happen in my game but I have seen it before. With a little luck both groups of civs, if they remain peaceful, can continue to research at a pretty fast rate each going up different paths. One towards Military Tradition the other towards Banking/econ. This is the best possible outcome. By buying 1 you can trade for the others and get many 2frs playing back and forth until at least Astronomy if not Navigation.

Originally posted by hotrod0823

I was able to use my map to gain enough gold to allow me to buy my way into tech parity. I was actually getting gpt for my Maps. I held out until Japan started Magellen's before trading contact.

Click to expand...

I considered doing that... but wondered if the AI would be smart enough to send suicide boats through the channel I'd made. Guess, from your experience I was crediting it with something it just couldn't do. Does it not use suicide galleys?

Didn't sell my maps until after navigation, along with the contacts, at which point they were worth a lot. However, managed to make a killing/keep everyone broke acting as a tech middle man in the meantime, so didn't make much of a difference.

I have never ever seen an AI suicide galley. I used my maps mostly because I had no gold at the time and could'nt use my luxuries and resources until navigation came in.

Surprisingly though even after Japan had my full map he still payed me gpt to update it !

1.29f conquest

first attempt at a GoTM, first attempt at Deity, I've never played above Monarch, and I have trouble on that level.

I didn't keep any timelines, so not much I can tell you. Only thing I remember is, when I was researching my 2nd tech in the Middle ages, the other civs went industrial. You know what that does to your moral when you see the city icons switch to industrial?
Basically, I could never get other civs to trade techs with me, which is normal. I had contact with the new world, but that wasn't from my contact so I got no help out of that.
I think the Ottomans had their eyes on me early, because they went to war with France and eventually wiped them out, which, of course, moved their borders to meet with mine in the south. Then after some time, they decided to go after me, and there was nothing I could do about it. They wiped me out in 1365 ad.

I just want to know if the names on the tiles are for anything, or just there for looks?

A tale of woe, and lost opportunities

530BC
Have iron, France do not, war soon.

510BC
Culture swap city to Keltoi, no where near their land, close to my palace, our culture is close. 2 turns later I lost another

290BC
Capture Marsaille from French to make up for the Keltoi issue

But now they come at me with Swords, must be trading for it, nobody else will join the war with me.

210BC
Paid the world to get Keltoi in alliance against France, Keltoi then bring in India too, so I think it was worth it

10BC
Keltoi take Grenoble after I weakened it typically, but I get GL Sertorius, now where to put that FP
Also Avignon taken by me.

90AD
Whole Continent now at war with France

120AD Circa?
Keltoi set peace with France (before the end of our alliance), I do the same as I'm under pressure to keep fighting them. Get everything they own and one City for their impudence.

Over the next 100 years or so India makes in-roads into France. Too late I realise that I can make some hay and join in too, but only end up helping India take all their cities

450AD
Ottoman and Keltoi declare war against India, this is my chance to sneak some cities, I'll wait a turn or two

500AD
Got Leo's, still waiting for Keltoi to get to India territory before I join in

580AD
Fighting India, Keltoi barely helping keep sending their troops away and then back.
Found that Ottoman had other communications, bought cheaply and that gave me lots of other trades. I didn't make a serious effort to go over there and I know I should have

Here is the world ranking, although 7th not that many points 4th.

Iroguois 1682, Japan 1533, India 1495, Keltoi 1422, America 1409, Ottoman 1404, Spain 1308,
Aztec 1168, England 997, Zulu 728, France 645

660AD
Keltoi take a couple of India cities, I attacked them both, lost troops tried to time it right but always Keltoi just made the final blow

860AD
Lost another city to Keltoi due to Culture, sure they have better culture but these cities were double the distance from their capital to mine, I had four defenders and I had the local culture on my side?????????????????????????????

960AD
Back to war with India, I was there at the end with my Missionary hoping to get a kill, but all I could see werer tough defenders. Keltoi destroyed India, at least I go up one in the rankings

1060AD
Keltoi declare war on me, as I'm so far behind on tech, they have cavalry I have muskets, I think I'm in trouble.
We get a Golden age as they leave a weak unit open for my Missionary
All my continent join me in the fight on my side

Iroguois 2053, Japan 2014, Otto 1957, Keltoi 1877, Spain 1733, America 1718 etc.

1110AD
Fight going well, with help of my friends, holding my own so far.
City near Ottoman pledged to them, but they refused !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1120AD
Left a weakly defended city in Cavalry range (mistake), had an elite Musket with 2 hits left, Cavarly dies with no loss, and Cordoba GL appears. Problem is I'm too far behind on Tech to use it on a Wonder. Nobody will trade with me (too many wars?)

1200AD
Now at peace with all. Took some Keltoi cities back (three of them). Both them and Ottoman are furious with us, I'm really concerned about Ottoman with the Dragoon.

1240AD
At last entered Industrial age, 10 turns from Nationalism, and I might have a chance of defending against those dragoons when they come.

Otto 2147, Japan 2144, Iroquois 1973 (destroyed), Keltoi 1916, Spain 1824, America 1823
So I should be fourth soon, America is catching after destroying Iroquois.

1260AD
Golden Age over.
Japan declare war on Otto, and England forced to join in. Think I might just watch this one.

1410AD
England and Keltoi go to war, I think I need to use this to take a couple of Ketoi cities.

End up taking one Keltoi city and then having to sue for peace. Clearly no way to win this game, and Otto is unlikely to accept my impudence for long

Field of dreams it ain't.

Zulu owns half the old world continent and has (apparently) already teched into the Industrial age - and, of course, shared his advances with the 'big 3' leaving the rest of us fighting for scraps.

India and Celt long since dead. Queenie E is down to 3 cities and Otto is sucking with 5.

Japan, Aztec, and Iriqois sharing half the new world between them.

America owns half the new world - Zulu/America #1 and #2 in the ranking.

razed 2 French cities, sued for peace and got some tech - thought I was close to parity until zulu tanks and bombers showed up on my doorstep.... oops.

Oh well. Own about 1/4 of my continent, #4 in the points. I guess I can't complain as this is my first GOTM and my first attempt at Diety level. Got VERY lucky early on finding the choke points to the NE.

I have a feeling Shaka is about to reign holy terror on us backwards Spaniards. I think I waited to long to engage in combat with the Joan - got too far behind on techs and just can't catch up.

Pulling in 400+ gpt but just can't enough together to buy my way out of this tech hole.

Kudos to all those who are playing their first GOTM and/or first diety game and posting here! Its good to have you in the community. Fear not, even the best of us struggled with diety at first. You have great discoveries to make! One of which is that the only thing that separates you from the people at the top of the charts is experience.

And kudos for Cracker and the staff for creating a great environment for players on all levels.

Originally posted by hotrod0823
I have never ever seen an AI suicide galley. I used my maps mostly because I had no gold at the time and could'nt use my luxuries and resources until navigation came in.

Surprisingly though even after Japan had my full map he still payed me gpt to update it !

Click to expand...

Guess Japan must like seeing those extra few squares of ocean quite a lot! Still, money is money!

I was lucky enough to get the situation you described, both continents researching different techs... very profitable.

What suprised me was that I found India a scientific powerhouse (along with Japan/America). This was despite the fact that they were only average sized and spent most of the medieval times at war with their bigger neighbours the Zulu... Don't think I've seen that before. Wondering if they got an early tech lead and coasted on payments from the others?

Originally posted by ltcoljt
Kudos to all those who are playing their first GOTM and/or first diety game and posting here! Its good to have you in the community. Fear not, even the best of us struggled with diety at first. You have great discoveries to make! One of which is that the only thing that separates you from the people at the top of the charts is experience.

And kudos for Cracker and the staff for creating a great environment for players on all levels.

Click to expand...

This is also my first Diety game. I played conquest. If it wasn't a GOTM, I would never being playing at that level. I have enough trouble playing Monarch on random maps! If it wasn't for Cracker giving us a decent start and the conquest bonuses, I would have been doomed...

I'm with you... pushing my skill level at the monarch level - I would never have posted a diety game if it were not a GOTM.

My kudos also to cracker and the gang. Great work...

R6

ltcoljt, that was a highly entertaining account of your medieval times. Your experience is precisely why I don't use suicide galleys. I can't handle entrusting part of my game to luck, and then watching it go sour. Ironically, in the end your investment turned out to be profitable, and of course dramatic. But it's not for me. On a different topic, I don't know how many players warred significantly in the ancient era, as we were probably better off expanding peacefully. And you certainly made up for your late start with that nasty late-era rush.

R6, if you're pulling in 400gpt in the Middle Ages, you will have your day in the sun. Just hang in there, and look for those trading opportunities when two different techs are available from two different civs.

Southpaw, i think the names are just there for looks.

OPEN division, v1.21f

Well, I tried. I thought I started out well and actually was in the game until about 1/2 way thought the Middle Ages. Thats when I stopped being able to trade for techs. I was trading furs for teachs at the beginning and the went to gpt for awhile...and then nothing. I wasn't at war with anyone and hadn't broken any agreements, so it must have been my relative low power.

I started a series of border engagements, picking on those civs as weak as or weaker then me in the points, usually taking 2-3 cities and holding them until the counter attack, then making peace. But I could usually only get 1 tech in the process. Even after taking India down to 2 cities, they only would give me two useless dead end techs, not the tothers which i wanted badly. I ended up rushin lib, univ, banks and whatever else in order to do 4-5 turn research, I knew I was in trouble when I made a ROP with France to get at the Ottomans, and my Calvary was passing French Armor on thier way up north to get the Celts.

I did learn a lesson that made me want to throw my computer across the room. My second ship died at sea with the culture border in sight and as I moaned and groaned about it, I forgot to check the F4 screen. I actually had made contact, and they had traded it around the 2nd island. None of them contacted me, but when I finally did, I was able to pull a few techs closer by keeping them apart for awhile. I think my other mistake was trading contact early to get Knights, which I needed to beat off the Celts. As soon As I did that, I lost whatever chance I had in staying near the middle of the tech race.

So, now I plan on trudging to the bitter end....

Zulu and France are the cream of the crop, the other island keeps on declaring war, but never attacing anyone. I do believe that the two islands will never actually attack each other.

I was able to use Moonsingers UU army for a little bit, and while I was able to pillage, the cost of building the UU army vs the need for calavary made it a very debatable action.

Second GOTM, first Deity attempt, all in all I'm quite happy that I made it this far.