RBC12 - Fall of Rome SG Series Thread

Fall of Rome - C3C Scenario - Succession Game series

Following partial signups in the RBCiv SG Discussion Thread,
we're ready to roll with the "Fall of Rome" series. We'll
be fielding teams for all or almost all civs
Rules are nothing unusual, the basic no-exploit list of
Realms Beyond. 24 hrs to post "got it", +up to 48 hrs to finish
the turn. Be careful to check the civopedia for the scenario,
as there are some very significant changes in the scenario.
Most civs will likely need to eliminate one half of the Roman
empire and ally with other barbarian nations to bring down the
other half, lest they lose to Rome on victory points.
We'll go with a limit of one worker purchase per civ for the
first 50 turns, and no limit after that, to avoid being too
harsh to the AI.

Please use v1.1.5 of Civ 3 Conquests
Hosts- check 'Normal' aggression, and use default leader names.
# of turns per player turn: 10 right from the start, although first player may take 15 at his option.

Most games below still have slots! If interested, sign up here
or directly in the game thread. For each civ below, the 'host'
is listed first. They'll have final say on players, are responsible
for starting a new thread (RBC12civLetter - Fall of Rome - civName,
e.g. RBC12a - Fall of Rome - Vizigoths)


Brutal games (variant Deity players only, please)

A) Vizigoths - Deity
------------
Charis
Arathorn
Nad
Aggie

B) Celts - Sid
--------
T-Hawk
Speaker
(Coffee, you know you want to otherwise a Scouting Sid player
or still short, Charis)

Challenging games (Demigod+ players, please)

C) Huns - Deity
-------
Ridgelake
Grimjack
(probably T-Hawk too)

D) Vandals - Demigod
----------
Justus
Rubberjello
Skyfish (?)

E) Franks - Deity
---------
Hotrod
6thGenTexan
Kylearan

F) Ostrogoths - Demigod
-------------
Aggie
Dwip
Jack Merchant
(probably Charis too)

Solid-to-Tough games (open to any, but Monarch/Emperor experience is a good idea)

G) Sassanids (Persians) - Emperor (slots full)
------------
Ducki
Mitsho
Improviser
Caesar_Augustus
Corrado

H) Anglo-Saxons - Demigod (slots full)
--------
T_McC
Bede
Kabuki
Elvis1985
SirBugsy

I'll edit the list and make any comments on rules as needed here in this
first post. Good luck all!

Just for the sake of fun, I'll add my first Poll here:
Which team will have the most dominant win? (You can think of that as score or date of finish or victory points, but basically, which of these civs is going to really lay down the smack?! )


Charis

why, the Visigoths, of course

Had to offer my completely impartial and objective choice for the Vandals, good to see someone else has also!!

The Franks of course!

In all honesty I think they all will be a challenge

SASSANIDS! (nope, I'm not biased . . .)

Seriously, if we can't quickly sweep those pathetic Romans out of Eurasia while on Emperor, there's something wrong

BTW, who's the captain of the Sassanid team? I'm itching to get started . . .

{EDIT} Ah nm, I see that Ducki is

Why, of COURSE it'll be the Ostros! Go team!


And as a followup of my posting of this over in the other discussion thread, here's some links to all the games:

RBC12A - Visigoths (Deity)
RBC12B - Celts (Sid)
RBC12C - Huns (Deity)
RBC12D - Vandals (Demi)
RBC12E - Franks (Deity)
RBC12F - Ostrogoths (Demi)
RBC12G - Sassanids (Emp)
RBC12H - Anglo-Saxons (Demi)

No Hun thread yet that I can find. I'll edit it in when I see it.

The Huns don't have a thread because the team needs a captain to kick it off. I'm already running the Sid game; it's up to Ridgelake or Grimjack.

Well, I very much wanted to start the Hun thread today. Unfortunately, I downloaded and installed the latest Microsoft service pack for XP yesterday and now I can't get civ to work. It bombs out on loading. I have spent several hours today trying various things to no avail. Re-install, uninstall, unpatch, repatch, going back to base Civ3. Nada.

To make matters worse, I will be going out of town tomorrow morning and won't be back until next Sunday.

So I guess that means that Grimjack will need to start it off, and I will hope to get Civ working ASAP to pick up starting next week.

I made this map for the Sassanids game, and thought the other teams might find it of use:



Have fun destroying the Romans everyone!

I'd like to give everyone a heads-up on the latest developments for the Celts Sid team...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1611938

Congrats T-Hawk and your team, I just finished reading your turn log, then saw a new post in this thread Awesome job, and a little motivation for the rest of us!

That there, T-hawk, is a lot of points.


On another note, just to be all taunty and stuff:



We may not end up with the fastest win in years, or the highest-scoring (Sid team, that's you, I bet), but we sure do have our real-world timing down. Whee! Go Ostrogoths!

Thanks Jack Merchant, Dwip and Kabuki. This was a great team!

To all playing in the grandiose RBC12 SG, you guys are doing great! The reading is just fascinating, both in strategy, turn of events, and writeups!

I wanted to take a moment here to reflect at this mid-point on some tips and general themes showing up in various games, as well as point out some of the key differences in strategy showing up for the different civs. After the last game is done I hope to put together a Strategy Guide for the scenario (hopefully as part-editor, given the strong playing and writing skills on the different teams)

* General Comments / Tips

- Rome and Byzantines are locked alliance (even stronger than MPP, peace/war is with both)
- Half the commentators say cash is useless, others say it rules. The only real use
is to upgrade to the top units, but that's a real benefit. Raider -> Pillager is 60g,
and Pillager -> Warlord is also 60g. Embassies are another use for gold.
- Tech pace is fairly brisk, and there are riches to be gotten in trading maps often
- Folks who have played before think it's fine to wait til turn 50 or so to start Armageddon,
with a dozen+ of pillagers most likely.
- No good reason to avoid packing cities moderately close, as long as you grab the resources
you need. Rivers are common and very beneficial
- Around 400AD and SoG arrival, folks thoughts turn to war with nearest neighbor, and the
raiders start to head home if they haven't already.
- Fortification tech is *very* practical as it allows the crossing of rivers w/o penalty
- Mixed opinion on spears, from 'useless' to 'cheap MP'. Some suggest they make more sense
after age of Marauders.

* Common themes

- Folks in general know that barb techs are key, and you don't need much else in tech or
bldgs besides rax, with an occasional courthouse and/or temple.
- Library pre-build in capital seems common for the very nice (and cheap) Scourge of God.
That wonder can be completed in the decade around 400AD. Lower diffs looked to try outside
capital via a palace prebuild.
- Rome seems to like to extort around 390AD and everyone is backing down
- Early contacts are critical, send the raiders out to explore!
- Most folks talked big about going to war, but none plunged in too early, hoping to
get allies to absorb the brunt of Roman anger, then come in and mop up.
- Huns seem to be first AI to get Barb leadership in several games.
- If anyone got to Map Making first they made out VERY well in sales to Rome/Sass.

-- Notes on the ideas of the various civs and key events in each game:

Ostrogoths - Marauding, about 3-4 migrants, decent land grab. They comment that Vizi's have
very little space indeed and no room to expand. Temples are stated as part of their plan,
but are switched to rax. In 422 shortly after sacking they take on the *weak* Vizigoths
and wipe them out by 456, bringing VP up to about 5K. At that point they had an army and
*28* warlords! It took longer to discuss what to do next than to decimate their foes.
The Byzantines fell in ONE player turn, for about 12K VP. Surprisingly, the Anglos
wiped out West Rome the next turn! (Sassanids are a HUGE empire at this point, but irrelevant)
The Huns were at 7-cities lost and the opportunistic Ostrogoths poach the 8th city in a
smart move netting 7K VP, then the unwise Franks declare on them. More importantly, the
Ostro's take on the battle-weary Anglos and eliminate them with blinding speed, alas only
for 5K VP. Close to victory they press attack vs France and this puts them over the top of
35K VP for the first victory in the series, in 538 AD.

Vandals - like their central location, but know they must not make many enemies. Started on
Marauding, bought just before it was done. Pulled raiders back quickly after contacts made,
described opening as focus on expansion and migrants, not ultra-early military. Their
discussion suggested reliance on Pillagers. Vandals were able to buy quite a few workers.
Compared to other tribes, they went heavy on workers and migrants for a slower but more
ultimately powerful military buildup. Their write-ups and discussion were superb, but that
didn't stop the Sassy's from an unexpected and unwelcome attack. The early war did however
lead to an early army and a GA in 428. In 466 a demand for Rome to leave led to war and
another army. Not long after, in 490, Rome was gone - after a tense "2 cities left"
moment. VP total after Rome fell was 13K.

Vizigoths - early discussion suggested only a modest expansion, mil build up but not too
early a war, SoG as the only wonder to go for, and they liked the idea of hordes of cheap
Marauders, though the tech pace flew past that stage. Their starting location and situation
was very anti-rex, so the mil unit and SoG focus seemed appropriate, but may lead to problems
with lack of overall production later. Arathorn recommended cats as a solution for this,
as it would greatly improve our kill ratio, and would work with our slow units. The Vizigoths
were not just hit, but hammered by plague, and with less cities to absorb such pain. West
Rome declared on the Ostrogoths, and so after a slight pause to let those titans clash and
wound each other, we joined in the war in 450 and are in the unique position of being
direct neighbors to BOTH West and East Rome. On the plus side, turn 1 started our GA.
Also on the plus side, this turn was soon followed by the reign of General Arathorn
Painfully, our weak econ could not buy in a single ally. Cheers go up when Ostros and Franks
ally vs Rome (benefit of higher diff is more capable barb tribes)

Anglo-Saxons - Pushed for heavy expansion given the protection of the coast and long term
view toward production. This dense-ish build allowed them to view Franks as allies,
not breakfast, and planned Anglo-Franks-Celts-Vandals vs Western Rome plan. Then again,
teammates spoke up in favor of a French breakfast. Their territory map in 382 was
impressive. The weakness of the Franks makes them too nice for Vp and too useless as ally,
so the breakfast club wins. Although.. the situation around 442 got a bit dicey.

Huns - like others, start with Marauding, and go for an immediate granary due to food
situation. They're farther out than I thought, and did not seem so hungry as to want to
immediately gobble up a Gothic nation They chose a military-focus start with some
expansion emphasis, not a pure expansion mode, with 3/4 of early cities starting with
a rax. The lux situation is nice for the Huns (although easy to miss this apparently).
Early discussion saw other players backing up the 'push war' idea, but I'm not convinced
a early migrant rex followed by a swap to mil unit later wouldn't have been much more
effective. The timing however is critical, and I could certainly be proven wrong
Ridge and to some extent T-Hawk liked the idea of strengthen/expand core first.

Franks - wanting a fuller roster before they take off, they got off to a slow start but
now seem to be humming along fine. Build queue choices at start and early game seem
to be a bit... odd, lacking direction. More temples queued up than probably all other
tribes combined. Hotrod chimed in with some good advice. Trading was very problematic
until Kylearan got them on track. They're in a tough situation, with too few cities,
too few military, and strong competition for SoG.

Celts - The only Sid game, this difficulty will dominate their thoughts. They're the only
barb nation not going aggressively for Scourge. Initial discussion focuses on reducing
losses by heavy catapult numbers. Their tech choice is also unique, Alphabet, hoping for
a trade opportunity. They have a unique target as well - several farflung Roman cities in
England. They're expecting less gold for upgrades (since it's hard to keep up in tech),
and so favor a build, not upgrade approach to Marauders/etc. Unlike other diffs too, they're
relying on Rome selling around contact with Celts rather than exploring much. The Celts are
also the only nation eyeing a definite palace jump later, to near London. Economy and ability
to buy tech were extremely poor, and buying allies was totally out of the question. And yet
thanks to West Rome's weed like expansion in England and the Celtic catapult-stack, they
wiped out West Rome earlier than perhaps anyone else (!?) in 444 AD. The VP bonus was
enormous due to the number of Roman units alive - as they rocketed ahead of Byzantines
shooting to 25K VP. (Finally, a *plus* side to playing on Sid, although conversely,
if an AI takes on Byzantines they will get a similar bonus) Their next target was Franks.

Sassanids - the playable non-barb civ, right next to Byzantine Empire. They look forward
to a tech lead and ASAP Heavy cav. Looked at a peaceful REX opening. They get Fortification
quite early and start on Mil Training VERY early as well. The key debate was whether to
go for a few core super cities or expand a lot more. By merely 380 they had HC. In all
other games the Sassy's were dominant civ after Romes, how would the humans fare? They
were also the ones no one could seem to buy in. Indeed, the humans were able to buy *four*
alliances in just 392 and start things off. (Vandals got the SoG in this game, in 400)

* Who got Scourge? Anglos (400), Vizigoths and Ostrogoths (406), Vandals (408), Huns (426)
For Franks(Deity) it's due in 418 but will be close. For Celts was never a remote option.

* Feb 25th status - what game year is each game in?
F - Ostrogoth - 538 (over)
D - Vandals - 510
A - Vizi - 474
G - Sassanids - 464
B - Celts - 444
C - Huns - 426
H - Anglos - 442
E - Franks - 404

Good luck! (Nay, good skill, nay good killing! )
Charis

Nice summation of all the games thus far Charis! I would add that gold is especially useless for the Sassanids, since we start so close to Milit. Tradition and Heavy Cav, we don't have much of a chance to build loads of Horsemen for upgrading. Plus we start next to lots of unexplored territory (ie Africa and Saudi Arabia), so we really made a killing in map trading for as long as we explored.

Also the Vizigoths were the first AI barb civ to bite the dust in our game too - and we, the Sassanids, didn't even have anything to do with it! Looks like the AI also recognizes the weakness of the Vizi.

I would also like to direct everyone to this exciting post by Gobi Bear in the RBC12D Vandals thread. He's modified the Fall of Rome scenario so you can play as the Romans!! When he posts it tomorrow is anyone interested in playing it as a SG? We could have two teams for Western and Eastern Rome.

If there is interest, sign me up for the Western Rome one ; any difficulty is fine by me.

I just replied in our thread as well, but yes, I would definitely be interested, taking the Byzantine side. I would like to see the scenario and victory conditions first, but I had already been thinking of modding the scenario to make it playable, but with the restriction that to win, you have to try and keep the other half of the empire alive as well (or at least make it a part of the score).

I'd love to play either Rome on the defensive.

Now that he's posted, and a few folks have already noted this would be a "Good Thing", shall we get signups here and plan on:

RBC12I-Romans
RBC12J-Byzantines

It sounds pretty brutal, so Demigod might be an appropriate level? I would be interested in Byzantines (play, not host this time), as was Justus. For Western Rome there is Caeasar (of course, with that name) and Corrado. Gobi or co-worker? Others?

And after (what seems to be) the success and fun of this series, I have a feeling the Middle Ages scenario will go over well too.

Charis

Just so everyone realizes, Gobi Bear's modified scenario includes several locked alliances keeping the barb tribes at war with the Romes. If it wasn't for that, the player could easily sit on the victory locations and make 35K. With four to six barb tribes constantly coming at you, though, it's harder.

I'll pass on signing up, but good luck with it.

I'm definitely in for the Demigod West, and I volunteer to host. Look for the thread soon, though I'm not going to start the actual game for awhile - I'll wait for signups and for the other RBC12 games to finish up.

I'm thinking we may want to make this game 5 turns per player, since it's basically AW. What does everyone think?

Here's the modified 'Everlasting Rome' scenario for those not wanting to dig through the Vandals thread for it.

This is the one where you play as Eastern or Western Rome and fend off the barbarians.

UnZIP it into your Scenarios folder and then access it from the Civ-Content menu item. The in-game scenario intro text needs some updating, but otherwise it should be ready to test.

The changes from the Fall of Rome that shipped with Conquests go something like this:

- Update the scenario name and description
- Change which civs are human playable
- Add locked alliance of Sassanids vs. Rome
- Add locked alliance of Celts, Anglo-Saxons and Vandals vs. Rome
- Add locked alliance of Ostrogoths and Huns vs. Rome
- Allow colonies in desert
- Change War Weariness from High to Low for the Imperialism Government
- Military police to 1 in Imperialism
- Harbor and Walls for Constantinople
- Harbor for Alexandria.

Click to expand...