PANtheons and Beliefs

Literally, a Pantheon is a group (of varying sizes) of gods. Each god in a pantheon generally represents some singular, or related multiple aspects of Life in Ancient times. That is, _each_ god has some Belief associated with that god.

So why is it that we have only ONE Belief for the Pantheon stage of Religion?

At present, the usual strategy is to accumulate enough Faith to secure that ONE Belief that you think will be more useful to you. Thereafter, it's a race to get that first Great Prophet to convert your pantheon into an honest-to-goodness Religion. That first Gt Prophet costs a substantial amount of Faith, so players spend a fair amount of time using that ONE Belief.

How about, as an option, a player could accumulate a smaller amount of Faith (more than the initial requirement/less than the cost of a Gt Prophet) to expand his god collection to gradually build up an honest to goodness Pantheon? He would be postponing his Religion launch with its more substantial Beliefs benefits for a wider spread of minor perks. And if it's a big game with LOTS of player positions, he's risking having all of the available Religions being used up before he gets his first Gt Prophet. [Hmm. didn't notice if this was the case, but based on the number of player positions, is there usually one less Religion than there are players? If not, I think it would make for a worthwhile game addition to set it up that way.]

Looking at the Real World, there are several examples of civilizations that stuck with pantheons (which kept getting wider and wider) long after Monotheism became the social rage. And from what I can see, the wider they were, the more cumbersome and _counter_-productive they became. Like the Romans absorbing pretty nearly every god they came across, as well as adding more at a regular pace. It gets _expensive_ appeasing LOTS of gods! Plus the amount of lost production as each new god requires its own temple infrastructure and clergy staffing. So, with the expansion of Belief benefits would come a spread of penalties.

This idea worth contemplating? Already been suggested umpteen times? Too cumbersome to implement? What?

Religion does not imply monotheism in this game. If you were to have pantheons allow multiple beliefs, it would destroy the point of going for a religion overall. This is not how the system is set up. Personally I think it is fine how it is. Its hard enough to fit the things in the game now within the time limit given.

A pantheon in this game is just supposed to represent an early, primitive religion. That is why your pantheon belief is carried over into your religion, you "upgrade" to the religion.

I don't feel like this would add anything to the game personally.

CaptainPatch said:

And if it's a big game with LOTS of player positions, he's risking having all of the available Religions being used up before he gets his first Gt Prophet. [Hmm. didn't notice if this was the case, but based on the number of player positions, is there usually one less Religion than there are players? If not, I think it would make for a worthwhile game addition to set it up that way.]

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the maximum number of religions on a given map size is one more than one-half the default number of civilizations for that map size (e.g., 5 religions on a Standard map, where default is 8 civs). Changing the number of civs (up or down) does not change max religions for that map.

Is there ANYTHING that you think the game _needs_? That wouldn't be just more complicating clutter to a design that's already streamlined?

I see the difference between Pantheons and Religion as being Little Beliefs and Big Beliefs. Like when weighed by Value, a ratio of 3-to-1 or more. (The more Little Beliefs possible, the less each would be worth.) Having a few Little Beliefs has a certain appeal, but having the Big Beliefs of the Religion has a MUCH greater appeal. But like so much else in the game, the relative values are up the player to decide. Just like, build Civic buildings? or build a Wonder? Both paths have something to offer the player. Ultimately, it's the _player_ decides, rather than the limitations of the design that doesn't even offer the choice.

Far as I can see the pantheon beliefs are significantly stronger than the religion beliefs.

What you're suggesting is essentially switching Pantheons and Religions around. Instead of 1 powerful belief with your pantheon, like you get right now with Fertility Rites, Desert Folklore and God King to name a few which can have a rather potent impact on the outcome of the game, you get a bunch of little beliefs incrementally.

Meanwhile with religion you would get a small number of more powerful beliefs, as opposed to now where the only actually powerful beliefs are Tithe, the faith purchase buildings (pagodas etc.) and all of the reformation beliefs.

Thematically I suppose that makes sense but it would be an absolutely huge overhaul to the current system. Maybe in a future expansion.

PS. Those underscores are fcking distracting bro

As an alternate approach, one could have many/most/all of the pantheon Beliefs expire, much like many of the tech benefits. Good for Ancient Era, maybe even Classical Era, but then they no longer apply. For example, there were some advantages to having worshiped the Greek pantheon. But now that we've moved on to Greek Orthodox Christianity, none of that applies anymore. That would help civs to get a tmporary boost during their formative years, when they really need it. But sooner or later the "training wheels need to come off the bike".

CaptainPatch said:

Is there ANYTHING that you think the game _needs_? That wouldn't be just more complicating clutter to a design that's already streamlined?

I see the difference between Pantheons and Religion as being Little Beliefs and Big Beliefs. Like when weighed by Value, a ratio of 3-to-1 or more. (The more Little Beliefs possible, the less each would be worth.) Having a few Little Beliefs has a certain appeal, but having the Big Beliefs of the Religion has a MUCH greater appeal. But like so much else in the game, the relative values are up the player to decide. Just like, build Civic buildings? or build a Wonder? Both paths have something to offer the player. Ultimately, it's the _player_ decides, rather than the limitations of the design that doesn't even offer the choice.

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If the first part is directed at me, which I feel it probably is, let me explain. I see a lot of suggestions on this board that often seem to want to make the game way more complicated or just doesn't actually add anything to the game experience. To those things, I say no, I don't believe they have value in the game.

Using this as an example. I already RARELY found a religion because there is just SO much to do in the game already. I need culture, science, food, faith, production, military and now tourism. I always want to try for religion, but a lot of time it doesn't seem worth it. This would compound that fact by leaving you in pantheon even longer. How the system is structured right now is that if you want more beliefs, you make a religion. Then you can have a few more. Your suggestion isn't bad, but it wouldn't fit into the game, it is too much of a change without keeping the rest of the game in context.

There are a lot of suggestions I have for the game, but they are either minor balance fixes, changes or they are huge overhauls. I don't suggest the huge overhauls because that is not what this board is designed for. There is a suggestions tab for that.

It just seems to me that people love to make things more and more complicated but eventually you are just going to lose people. Complicated and more detailed is NOT always better. The game needs to be detailed enough to give us what we need, but open enough that many people still wish to play it. I personally do not like games where I have to sort through spreadsheets of data.

TLDR: A lot of the ideas that people have are better suited for CIV 6, and not for an expansion or a patch. Its one thing to add new features, but totally reinvisioning current features or changing fundamentals of the game is probably best saved for a new one.

Yzman said:

I see a lot of suggestions on this board that often seem to want to make the game way more complicated or just doesn't actually add anything to the game experience. To those things, I say no, I don't believe they have value in the game.

Using this as an example. I already RARELY found a religion because there is just SO much to do in the game already.

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One of the things that I am intensely aware of is that this game (like so many others) has literally millions of people playing it. Not all of them have the same play style, preferences, or interests. So just because I don't like some element that is in the game, or being suggested that it should be included isn't enough reason for me to flatly declare "There is no place for that in this game." Whether or not there is a significant number (10,000? 100,000? 1 million?) players that ARE interested in that element is usually rather unknowable. So, who am I to flatly declare, "No way!" to any suggestion? I can only speak for myself and indicate that I like or dislike a suggestion.

I need culture, science, food, faith, production, military and now tourism.

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As a way to customize the game to the preferences of the player, would your objection be diminished if it was possible to toggle any given game element on or off in the setup, much like it is with Espionage now? Since you aren't as interested in the Religion aspect, just turn it off entirely. Have Pantheons as it is now, or toggle on Enhanced/Expanded Pantheons. Etc. That way, you get the game the way you want without denying others the possibility of having something they want.

CaptainPatch said:

One of the things that I am intensely aware of is that this game (like so many others) has literally millions of people playing it. Not all of them have the same play style, preferences, or interests. So just because I don't like some element that is in the game, or being suggested that it should be included isn't enough reason for me to flatly declare "There is no place for that in this game." Whether or not there is a significant number (10,000? 100,000? 1 million?) players that ARE interested in that element is usually rather unknowable. So, who am I to flatly declare, "No way!" to any suggestion? I can only speak for myself and indicate that I like or dislike a suggestion.

As a way to customize the game to the preferences of the player, would your objection be diminished if it was possible to toggle any given game element on or off in the setup, much like it is with Espionage now? Since you aren't as interested in the Religion aspect, just turn it off entirely. Have Pantheons as it is now, or toggle on Enhanced/Expanded Pantheons. Etc. That way, you get the game the way you want without denying others the possibility of having something they want.

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1. I am not saying I don't play differently than others, if thats what you think I said. This is a discussion board. You brought up an idea, and I said why I don't believe it would be a good fit for the game.

2. I never turn off any feature. I am not saying I don't enjoy religion. As I said, I like to TRY to get one. The problem is, the higher difficulty you play, the harder that becomes. I could focus on religion, but it will cost me in other areas. Often this is too high of a cost.

In terms of turning things off, I know some people do, I don't. I don't believe I have ever disabled a certain feature of the game, it just seems odd to me. So no, that doesn't change anything for me personally. What I was saying is that if it was ENABLED I believe it would cause problems to the whole religion game, unless costs and other things were significantly revamped.

In the current game, if we assume costs stayed roughly the same, you would never end up founding a religion unless you went super religion heavy.

I feel like you may be getting a bit defensive just because I don't think the idea has much value. You shouldn't. This is a discussion board and if you read any of the topics here you will see that many people will disagree and many will agree with a particular idea for even something as small as a minor balance change. Just as you said, others play the game differently and how I play, this idea shows very little merit to me because I would hardly ever get to utilize it.

Thank you for being diplomatic. I suppose, to be honest, I was being overly-defensive. Mea culpa.

What I was saying is that if it was ENABLED I believe it would cause problems to the whole religion game, unless costs and other things were significantly revamped.

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Shame on me for having ass-u-med (as the old jest goes). I was sort of taking it for granted that the Beliefs would be sorted into Little (pantheon) and Big (Religion) Beliefs by how much impact they would have. Such as a Little Belief would be a +1 Culture while a Big version would be +3 Culture. It would take 3 of the Little Beliefs to have as much impact as just 1 Big Belief.

if we assume costs stayed roughly the same, you would never end up founding a religion unless you went super religion heavy.

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Why though? It would be still possible to found a pantheon, get 1 Belief, then when you've gotten your first Gt Prophet, establish a Religion. Nothing there has changed. But from what I've seen, it can take a llllooooonnnngggg time to build up enough Faith to get that first Gt Prophet. In particular, if someone else has already established a Religion, I've already lost that race. Since I'm sitting on a fair number of Faith points that are literally doing nothing for me, now, wouldn't it be nice to cash in some of them to get a second (or third) Little Belief and get at least some benefit, now? I would be choosing to postpone establishing my Religion, but that was going to happen "some day" in the future anyway.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but unlike pantheon Beliefs, when a player selects a Religion Belief, that doesn't preclude others from selecting that same Belief for their Religions does it? So starting a Religion late doesn't run the risk of missing out on all of the good choices. It just means that your Missionaries, Inquisitors, and Gt Prophets have their work cut out for them trying to play Religion catch-up. [Then again, Real World, Islam was pointedly a Johnny-Come-Lately, but that didn't stop it from becoming #2 in the world.]

CaptainPatch said:

Thank you for being diplomatic. I suppose, to be honest, I was being overly-defensive. Mea culpa.

Shame on me for having ass-u-med (as the old jest goes). I was sort of taking it for granted that the Beliefs would be sorted into Little (pantheon) and Big (Religion) Beliefs by how much impact they would have. Such as a Little Belief would be a +1 Culture while a Big version would be +3 Culture. It would take 3 of the Little Beliefs to have as much impact as just 1 Big Belief.

Why though? It would be still possible to found a pantheon, get 1 Belief, then when you've gotten your first Gt Prophet, establish a Religion. Nothing there has changed. But from what I've seen, it can take a llllooooonnnngggg time to build up enough Faith to get that first Gt Prophet. In particular, if someone else has already established a Religion, I've already lost that race. Since I'm sitting on a fair number of Faith points that are literally doing nothing for me, now, wouldn't it be nice to cash in some of them to get a second (or third) Little Belief and get at least some benefit, now? I would be choosing to postpone establishing my Religion, but that was going to happen "some day" in the future anyway.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but unlike pantheon Beliefs, when a player selects a Religion Belief, that doesn't preclude others from selecting that same Belief for their Religions does it? So starting a Religion late doesn't run the risk of missing out on all of the good choices. It just means that your Missionaries, Inquisitors, and Gt Prophets have their work cut out for them trying to play Religion catch-up. [Then again, Real World, Islam was pointedly a Johnny-Come-Lately, but that didn't stop it from becoming #2 in the world.]

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Selecting a religious belief locks it out from others, just like a pantheon. All religions have unique benefits. That is why I say it is likely you would never get a religion. Something like this could possibly work if the system was totally reworked, but as it works right now, I find it hard to see how it would function and not mess up religions.

Yzman said:

Selecting a religious belief locks it out from others, just like a pantheon. All religions have unique benefits. That is why I say it is likely you would never get a religion. Something like this could possibly work if the system was totally reworked, but as it works right now, I find it hard to see how it would function and not mess up religions.

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Ow. Only ONE Religion can have Cathedrals? Pagodas? Monasteries? Mosques? (I'm surprised there wasn't one for Synagogues.) That doesn't seem right. Pretty much EVERY Major Religion had some grand structure in which to worship their version of God(s).

Given the dwindling supply of useful Beliefs, deliberately delaying establishing a Religion (and then Enhancing it ASAP) is definitely counter-productive.

Venues for worship are arguably represented by shrines and temples, so Cathedrals, etc. aren't necessary for a religion. And scarcity (including scarcity resulting from the exclusivity of religious beliefs) and having to make hard choices that involve trade-offs are what make a good strategic game.

Browd said:

Venues for worship are arguably represented by shrines and temples, so Cathedrals, etc. aren't necessary for a religion.

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I sort of took it for granted that Shrines and Temples were equivalent to the omnipresent churches and temples you encounter in cities all over the world. The Belief structures felt more like GRAND places of worship, like the great cathedrals of Europe. Pretty much every major religion has something along those lines. Similarly, monasteries are common to many major religions as well. I also figured that the Notre Dame was representative of the cathedral system being established, making its effects all-pervasive throughout the empire.