My Idea for a Honor Revamp

MrL567

Warlord
Joined
Oct 5, 2012
Messages
121
Honor as we know is the weakest of the three ancient area policies due to the lack of an ability to actually grow your cities. My idea is to reward you have 1-2 large cities, and conquer many other cities to gain boosts. Along with this there will be buffs to other buildings to make going wide or tall practical.

Opener: 33% combat bonus vs Barbs. Gain culture= to Barbs Strength/ 1/2 for actual civilization. 11% Universal Combat Bonus VS any enemy Unit. This will allow you to have the same basic start if you want to just open it, or go right through it. With a 44% combat bonus VS barbs, it will allow you to get the ball rolling with gaining culture. While you get a weaker culture yield form killing enemy AL units form civilizations, you can also kill them faster for more culture.

Warrior Code: One Free Great General. 15% Universal Production Boost to all Military Units. Walls/Castle/Arsenal/Military Base yield 2 food and 2 gold. Get 1 Free Great General .While giving the original boost in a slightly buffed way, it boosts your defensive structures to give important yields to allow your empire to grow.

Military Tradition(REQ Warrior Code): Military Units get 50% exp from combat. Cities Count as Citadels for damage outside of them. Same EXP boost as old, but a nice defensive measure to make sure you keep your conquests.

Discipline: 20% Combat Boost for Military Units that are next to another Unit. Range Units get Hold The Line Promotion. What this does is that it gives them a 20% Combat Bonus on Defense, so they do not as often. This slightly boosts the original part, and strengths ranged unit defense as a way to keep your army going with less healing.

Military Caste(REQ Discipline): Cities with a garrison gain 2 Happiness, 2 Culture, 2 Faith and 2 Food. Increase each yield by 2 if that city was originally not your own. A buff to the original, has the same type of yield, but a few more and slightly higher to reward you for having many conquered cities by giving culture, faith, and happiness.

Professional Army(REQ Military Caste): 33% less gold upkeep for Military Units. Each city conquered gives a Food=to total amount 1/6 of food ever consumed by city to capital and Gold(5 gold per 1 gold produced by city. Goes to the treasury instead of capital). Works like Korea's UA. While the happiness for buildings is removed, this really rewards you warmongering by allowing you grow your capital very tall by conquest, and pay for more raiding with that extra gold you get from taking cities.

Closer: Adopting all policies grants gold = to Enemy STR when killed. Great Generals Gain Dread promotion. (Enemy Units within 2 hexs of General take a 10% Combat Penalty to there offense and defense.) All Units gain Cover 1 Promotion. While a smaller boost then the total sum of the rest of the tree, it allows you to get more gold for combat, and makes combat easier with generals weakening the enemy. It also makes your units even tougher with the Cover 1 Promo by making it easier to assault the city.

I think I have done a good job of upgrading the tree by boosting some yields to infrastructure, making it rewarding to have a large army, making is easier to hold and conquer, and making sure you stay relevant.
 
And while you're at it give a free settler to every Liberty policy.

Tradition finisher gives you a free Wonder in your capital.

Opening piety gives you a Great Prophet. Closing it expands it to every city on the map.
 
^ lol

I actually don't think Honor is all that bad. My happiness usually suffers least throughout the whole game when I go the Honor route. Liberty doesn't grow your cities either (unless you are talking about the free settler :rolleyes:). I agree that on paper the policy tree doesn't look too nice but I'm always happy to have the bonuses it offers. I wouldn't mind some tweaking here and there but I think, as the poster above me was indicating, the suggestions you offer are wildly OP. Your Military Caste revision alone seems to just blow everything else out of the water.

One of the things I've always lamented about early-game warfare though is that I never want to build barracks. I'm too busy building units. It would be nice if one of the early/opening policies in Honor granted this building for free in (at least) the capital if for nothing else other than flavor reasons.
 
11% Universal Combat Bonus VS any enemy Unit.
wtf

Walls/Castle/Arsenal/Military Base yield 2 food and 2 gold
omgwtf

Cities Count as Citadels for damage outside of them
zomgwtf

Discipline: 20% Combat Boost for Military Units that are next to another Unit. Range Units get Hold The Line Promotion. What this does is that it gives them a 20% Combat Bonus on Defense, so they do not as often.
omgomgomg

Cities with a garrison gain 2 Happiness, 2 Culture, 2 Faith and 2 Food. Increase each yield by 2 if that city was originally not your own.
yeee-haaaah!

Each city conquered gives a Food=to total amount 1/6 of food ever consumed by city to capital and Gold(5 gold per 1 gold produced by city. Goes to the treasury instead of capital).
oh-my-mother-fing-GOD

Dude, this honor tree still sucks! Clearly you need all this too:

Closer: Adopting all policies grants gold = to Enemy STR when killed. Great Generals Gain Dread promotion. (Enemy Units within 2 hexs of General take a 10% Combat Penalty to there offense and defense.) All Units gain Cover 1 Promotion.

My crossbows now have 11% + 20% + 20% + 33% + 33% (Cover 2) + 15% (GG) = 132% defensive value, with a -10% dread penalty to all enemies. Hells yeah, they're now stronger than generic gatling guns under fire. Plus all that other crap. Honor every game, all day long.
 
^ lol

I actually don't think Honor is all that bad. My happiness usually suffers least throughout the whole game when I go the Honor route. Liberty doesn't grow your cities either (unless you are talking about the free settler :rolleyes:). I agree that on paper the policy tree doesn't look too nice but I'm always happy to have the bonuses it offers. I wouldn't mind some tweaking here and there but I think, as the poster above me was indicating, the suggestions you offer are wildly OP. Your Military Caste revision alone seems to just blow everything else out of the water.

One of the things I've always lamented about early-game warfare though is that I never want to build barracks. I'm too busy building units. It would be nice if one of the early/opening policies in Honor granted this building for free in (at least) the capital if for nothing else other than flavor reasons.

I agree that the OP's ideas are rediculously overpowered, but I'd like to throw out my own ideas.

Perhaps the opener could allow building Barracks, Armories, and Military Academies in half the usual time and the finisher could give some gold tile yield to Citadels.

Would that be overpowered?
 
I agree that the OP's ideas are rediculously overpowered, but I'd like to throw out my own ideas.

Perhaps the opener could allow building Barracks, Armories, and Military Academies in half the usual time and the finisher could give some gold tile yield to Citadels.

Would that be overpowered?

I would say the Honor tree still needs a little more than what you're saying and a lot less than what's in the OP.
 
Well, this is one of those perennial discussions. Guess we're having it again. Maybe the devs are reading, so it's not a bad thing I suppose.

Honor is unappealing to take early because it doesn't offer growth. "Growth" in this context either means faster pop growth or faster city expansion. The latter can come in indirect forms like gold or productions boosts, or anything else that helps nab a settler.

Honor is unappealing to take later because the opener becomes a dead loss.

You could probably fix them both by adding to the opener, like barracks granting +1 gold or production.

Otherwise, it's quite strong. Even if you're not an aggressor, you can get a ton of happiness and culture from the right branch.
 
I'm a fan of the happy/culture from garrisoned cities, though. That helps contribute somewhat to growth.

Overall, I view it as a need-based tree. Usually I start it because of barbarians and continue it because they aren't bad choices. It's still better than the Commerce tree, imo.
 
Quite overpowered honor version. The potential +8 growth, OMG.

Honor is quite fine, the biggest problem it has is that it falls behind too much with the early game setup (100 first turns to give a number), even in best case scenarios (some of: early capital conquest, cooked settings, civ prone to honor), you could do just as well with tradition/liberty.

Too many free buildings/units you can't recover from. You will want them but you will have to build them or rush them, even with an early conquest (you can do anyways with a bit more effort with tradition/liberty)
 
Well, this is one of those perennial discussions. Guess we're having it again. Maybe the devs are reading, so it's not a bad thing I suppose.

Honor is unappealing to take early because it doesn't offer growth. "Growth" in this context either means faster pop growth or faster city expansion. The latter can come in indirect forms like gold or productions boosts, or anything else that helps nab a settler.

Honor is unappealing to take later because the opener becomes a dead loss.

You could probably fix them both by adding to the opener, like barracks granting +1 gold or production.

Otherwise, it's quite strong. Even if you're not an aggressor, you can get a ton of happiness and culture from the right branch.

I think a +1 :c5production: production and +1 :c5gold: gold for every (non-defensive) military building would be very nice and balanced though I wouldn't have it at the opener. It actually might make a good finisher (I for one am disappointed with the current X :c5gold: gold per killed enemy unit. Even as a warmonger, I spend way more time at peace than war and when I am at war I usually avoid enemy units when possible and head straight to whichever city I'm targeting. All in all, I never get much out of it.)
 
If you want more growth for the honor tree, you change one of the policys so that it makes it so less population is killed off when taking a city, OR change military caste so that once per city you can sacrifice a unit to increse a citys population by one.
 
I think OP needs to update his post before more people start making fun of his suggestions. :p
 
Cities as citadels? that would turn anywhere with hills around it into a massacre. 30 dmg per turn next to it would mean you could have one ranged unit in the city and you could kill a contemporary unit each turn. In general originally underpowered edited overpowered.
 
I've never personally had much of a problem with Honor? If you adopt it, there's a good chance you aren't really going for natural growth, but rather, growth through force. You're not trying to become the greatest city on the planet, you're going to TAKE that. The free Great General and boost to earning promotions is worth dipping into the left side of the policy for, and the right side gives you a flat combat bonus for something you were going to be doing anyway, and solutions for all your happiness problems so long as you invest in defensive buildings (since they don't cost gold, go for it!) and garrisons (you should be producing so many units you can afford to spare some). The gold per enemy kill bonus is a bit fluffy honestly, and given that warmongering should leave you with puppets, the bonuses to culture can mean you rip through the policy fast.

The time it takes to set up means that you likely won't end up warring immediately, but rather taking a bit of time and setup. I find this time usually results in mounted units being available, and thusly that's what you should be rushing in with- chariot archers and horsemen, with swordsmen as backup if they're available. Warriors and archers, by contrast, are better for defense, same with spearmen and even pikemen.
 
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