something weird

Cahillicus

Warlord
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
141
Location
In your cities, stealing your techs
I've noticed something very weird. In every game I've played, there's always a awkward period of time when most civs have civil service but nobody has gotten any units like the longswordsmen or knights, so pikemen are the strongest unit and everyone starts cranking them out likes it's going out of style. Maybe that should be changed in BNW.

Moderator Action: Moved to GD.
 
Civil Service is a great beeline. It gives pikemen, extra food, and it's on the way to education. It probably is too strong, but that's why you see a period with nothing but pikes.
 
Civil Service is too strong and so are pikes. They should be more vulnerable to melee units or, more preferably, require iron.
 
Civil Service is too strong and so are pikes. They should be more vulnerable to melee units or, more preferably, require iron.

Yes, pikemen annihilate all horse units, even up to Knights, an then dominate swordsmen as well, which they absolutely shouldn't, but hey, everybody screws up, even devs.
 
Don't you guys (or gals) remember your history when Pikemen basically ruled all of Europe.... never.
 
Don't you guys (or gals) remember your history when Pikemen basically ruled all of Europe.... never.

Exactly. Thing is, pikes are two handed weapons only, so as soon as your swordsmen with shields knock aside the pike points and get in close to the then undefended pikemen, the pikemen are toast. Pikemen are mainly a defense against charging cavalry, or a secondary unit that stands behind the front line of sword and shield soldiers and does what pokey-damage they can over their shoulders. They were not intended as pure melee units against sword and shield melee units. They suck at that.
 
Ironically the main use of melee units in Gods and Kings is to serve as a shield for your ranged units which then do all the dirty work, meaning that Pikes ruling an era actually makes sense.
 
Yeah, 16 strength (effective 24 against knights with their 20 strength and spammed earlier), no resource requirement, no real vulnerability, and on the optimal tech path is a bit much. Only bad part about 'em is the lackluster upgrade path.

They also need to make the longsword more accessible as an alternative. I suggest reworking Physics/trebs to require Engineering and then reworking Metal Casting, the prereq to Steel, to require only Iron Working (not Engineering too). You could then open up Longswords earlier if you really wanted to (Japan or Denmark maybe?).
 
I was always weirded out by that Pike turning into a Lancer. the Lancer itself is weird to me, simply because the Knight's image clearly shows him with a Lance! How is a Lancer different then a Knight?

I know the mechanical/tech difference between the units, i mean flavor wise what sense does it make to put a pike on a horse and say he's stronger than a knight who already has a lance :crazyeye:
 
Lancer is historically a different class of units than Knights. Lancers were Light Calvary for their time period while the Knight class was Heavy Calvary.

Yes; during the time period most of them many individual soliders knew how to use both the Lance and the Sword while mounted.
 
Don't you guys (or gals) remember your history when Pikemen basically ruled all of Europe.... never.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_formation

"the Macedonian phalanx that Alexander the Great and Phillip II commanded used a "sarissa" which was a much longer and heavier spear which required the use of two hands."

Of course, that is before the period which the "Pike" unit in Civ 5 hails from, "Pikeman" being a term for (I assume) a specific type of heavily armored infantry armed with long spears, and not something typically associated with the long pikes of ancient Greece. But wait...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_mercenaries

"Swiss mercenaries were notable for their service in foreign armies, especially the armies of the Kings of France, throughout the Early Modern period of European history, from the Later Middle Ages into the Age of the European Enlightenment. Their service as mercenaries was at its peak during the Renaissance, when their proven battlefield capabilities made them sought-after mercenary troops.... Swiss mercenaries (Reisläufer) were valued throughout Late Medieval Europe for the power of their determined mass attack in deep columns with the pike and halberd"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landsknecht

"The German Landsknechte (German plural, singular Landsknecht), meaning "servants of the land", were colourful mercenary soldiers with a redoubtable reputation, who took over the Swiss forces' legacy and became the most formidable military force of the late 15th and throughout 16th century Europe, consisting predominantly of German and Swiss mercenary pikemen and supporting foot soldiers, they achieved the reputation for being the universal mercenary of early modern Europe.[1][2]"

And of course, even after firearms became the decisive weapon in European warfare, European formations still made heavy use of pikes and closely-packed formations to ward off charges by cavalry or enemy infantry armed with melee weapons. So, for example, Oliver Cromwell's New Model Army of the mid 17th century still contained a large number of pikemen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Model_Army#Foot
 
I'm not sure how accurate it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_(weapon)

"As long as it kept good order, such a formation could roll right over enemy infantry but it did have weaknesses—as the men were all moving forward they were all facing in a single direction and could not turn quickly or efficiently to protect the vulnerable flanks or rear of the formation and the huge block of men carrying such unwieldy spears could be difficult to maneuver in any way other than straightforward movement."

"A common misconception is that pikes were employed for use against cavalry. Although it is true that pikes can indeed stop a cavalry charge, historically speaking, pike squares have rarely been able to withstand such attacks unsupported by friendly cavalry, especially if the opposing cavalry is armed with weapons with greater range or reach."

"These formations were essentially immune to the attacks of mounted men-at-arms as long as the knights obligingly threw themselves on the spear wall, but the closely packed nature of pike formations rendered them vulnerable to enemy archers and crossbowmen who could shoot them down with impunity, especially when the pikemen did not have adequate armor."

Perhaps these are some ways to nerf pikes, if they need nerfing:

(1) Take away the cover promo. They don't have shields because they have a 2-handed weapon, so they seem vulnerable to range. Actually making them extra-vulnerable seems too much, but taking away cover seems fair enough.

(2) Give them more vulnerability to flanking. If the flanking penalty were 15% or even 20% instead of 10% only, this would represent their real-world vulnerability to flank and rear action. Knights should be able to slaughter pikes at the right angle.
 
(2) Give them more vulnerability to flanking. If the flanking penalty were 15% or even 20% instead of 10% only, this would represent their real-world vulnerability to flank and rear action. Knights should be able to slaughter pikes at the right angle.

Except that's not how flanking works. Flanking, in CiV, is based on number of friendly units adjacent to the enemy unit (or vice versa), not unit angle.
 
It's still a balanced game IMO because all you have to do is beeline longswordsman and you'll beat all the pikeman people.
 
It's still a balanced game IMO because all you have to do is beeline longswordsman and you'll beat all the pikeman people.

Not really. Most people don't even research Steel until late in the game. Going for longswordsmen when they are actually relevant is gimping your research whereas pikemen come dozens of turns earlier and are on the way to Education.
 
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