Optimal game plan

W

Wojciech_R

Chieftain
Joined
Dec 15, 2015
Messages
69
Hi,

Variables:

1. Map - Continents PLUS (city states harder to reach, but don't take space)
2. Map size- standard, = 7 CIVs, number of City states reduced by 2
3. Game pace - Epic
4. Difficulty - Prince
5. CIV - MAYA
6. Plan - wide game, liberty, Science Victory.
(basically copy pasta from my Wonderlist thread)

Remember that I know how to win the game - just want to do that in best way possible (as a training before King).

Questions:
1. Maximum optimal number of Cities? There must be math for that... After what point every possible benefit from additional city will be outweight by science\culture penalty.
2. Advised pantheon + beliefs. Usual combination for me: Twitter:), Tithe, Pagodas, Religious text, Mosque (long count, + prince - you have first pick everywhere).
3. Build order.
Current: Scout, Monument, Shrine (Pyramid), Maya's archer for poor people, worker, settler, GL (second settler from policies).
4.Social policies:
Is it good idea to open traidition first(just open), then go to liberty?
Assuming yes - wonderbuild policy from tradition - worth taking after liberty finished?
Suggested Social policies path+ideology (I usually pick order - but I modded the name to freedom to feel better:D).
5.Benchmarks - remember I play on EPIC
a) Number of cities I should have 1 tourn before Theology
b)Number of cities and science output I should have after opening Rationalism
c) Science output after opening ideology.
d) Science output when finishing Rationalism.
6. Tech:
Pottery->writing->Drama (Naked people jumping from baths I get from GL) - beeline Theology or ge lux tech first.
 
What do you mean by “in best way possible”?

If you browse the HOF threads, you find people playing at lower difficulties trying to win in the fewest number of turns.

If you browse this Strategy & Tips forum you will mostly find people exploring ways to win at Deity either quickly and/or reliably.

For the most part, this “best way possible” does not change much as you progress through the difficulty levels, especially if you are trying to develop habits that will work as you advance.

The catch is that, until you are playing a level where you might loose, you won’t really be able to feel the difference between effective strategies and mediocre ones.

Plus, I suspect (based on your post) that, for you, the “best way possible” means snagging a bunch of the early wonders. Sadly, that is one of the first things one must give up when moving up difficultly levels!

But to reply to your specific questions:
  1. Four for Tradition, 6-8 for Liberty (good dirt being the deciding factor for 6, 7, or 8). Tradition is obvious from the free buildings. I don’t have the math behind the Liberty numbers, but 6-8 is the conventional wisdom.
  2. Your religion picks are fine. I like founding, and have experimented a good bit, but I have not found an OP combination.
  3. Two scouts first. Shrine is a UB, so that should certainly be before Monument.
  4. No. The strongest policies in Liberty are the (1) free and half-price settlers, and (2) free and faster workers. Tradition opener, if you want it, should be after those two. The border growth is much more valuable than the extra culture. The wonderbuild policy in Tradition is actually not very useful because strongest play does not focus on wonders. In any case, at that point in the game, you have much more compelling choices from Patronage and Aesthetics (and maybe even Exploration and Commerce are unlocked). Both Freedom and Order work really well for wide SV.
  5. I cannot give you good advice for benchmarks and working the tech tree. But at Prince and King, both hardly matter as you will be running away with the game.
 
All answers depend heavily on the map. There are two basic strategies though.

(1) Speed towards Collective Rule, build several additional cities early and later on rush the now more expensive National College with a Great Engineer from the Liberty tree once they all have a Library.

(2) Grow and improve your capital first and finish the National College in normal fashion while your free new Settler is on its way.

Personally I prefer (2) (policy order: Tradition, Liberty, free worker, Republic, free Settler; build order: Monument, Scout, Granary, Shrine), but both strategies are valid.
 
I could type, or you could read the wisdom of better players:

for step by step instructions for what you want to do with Liberty, go here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=559009

For fast and quick Domination victory (Specifically the mighty Huns), go here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=519905

For a little bit slower but also quick Liberty Domination Victory with anyone, go here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=503931

For a total domination victory with anyone regardless of settings, go here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=547630

And for wrapping up the late to end game quickly, go here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=534745
 
Ribannah said:
(2) Grow and improve your capital first and finish the National College in normal fashion while your free new Settler is on its way.
Click to expand...

This is clearly sub optimal for liberty and you really need expos quick to both prevent AI from expanding and to give more time to grow them.
 
In my experience it works fine.

It depends on the map and the difficulty setting, but usually there are enough good spots left. If necessary, prevent the AI from settling by posting a unit on their desired spot.

The new cities will grow more quickly than in (1) because:
- horses and iron have been revealed;
- you have enough money to buy key tiles;
- you may have allied with one or two City States;
- they don't need to prioritize a Library;
- you will have a Worker ready for each of them;
- the capital can send food and fishing boats where needed.

Also, you may have roaded towards their location and/or have researched Optics already for some good island cities.

But note that your capital will finish at size 35 rather than 25 so make sure it has enough tiles.
 
Ribannah said:
In my experience it works fine.

If necessary, prevent the AI from settling by posting a unit on their desired spot.
Click to expand...

I've really gotta wonder given the last couple of threads when the last time you played a game was.

Do you think that you standing on that mountain river hill stops the AI from settling right next to you? The AI doesn't care which specific tile it settles on. Hell, half the time if you try blocking it's settler it will just settle where it stands.

3 policies into liberty gets a settler out at about the same speed tradition gets the first one out. 5 policies into the game and 4th into liberty is pretty suicidal if that's what your intention is. Good luck with no land.
 
Wojciech_R said:
Hi,

Variables:

1. Map - Continents PLUS (city states harder to reach, but don't take space)
2. Map size- standard, = 7 CIVs, number of City states reduced by 2
3. Game pace - Epic
4. Difficulty - Prince
5. CIV - MAYA
6. Plan - wide game, liberty, Science Victory.
(basically copy pasta from my Wonderlist thread)

Remember that I know how to win the game - just want to do that in best way possible (as a training before King).

Questions:
1. Maximum optimal number of Cities? There must be math for that... After what point every possible benefit from additional city will be outweight by science\culture penalty.
2. Advised pantheon + beliefs. Usual combination for me: Twitter:), Tithe, Pagodas, Religious text, Mosque (long count, + prince - you have first pick everywhere).
3. Build order.
Current: Scout, Monument, Shrine (Pyramid), Maya's archer for poor people, worker, settler, GL (second settler from policies).
4.Social policies:
Is it good idea to open traidition first(just open), then go to liberty?
Assuming yes - wonderbuild policy from tradition - worth taking after liberty finished?
Suggested Social policies path+ideology (I usually pick order - but I modded the name to freedom to feel better:D).
5.Benchmarks - remember I play on EPIC
a) Number of cities I should have 1 tourn before Theology
b)Number of cities and science output I should have after opening Rationalism
c) Science output after opening ideology.
d) Science output when finishing Rationalism.
6. Tech:
Pottery->writing->Drama (Naked people jumping from baths I get from GL) - beeline Theology or ge lux tech first.
Click to expand...

This is all assuming you are after minimzing turns to victory. If you just want to win, you can pretty much do anything you want on Prince and still win.

1. Almost entirely dependent upon number of unique luxury types near your starting location when founding wide. The almost part is in case Fountain of Youth is near you which would also increase by 1 the number of cities a self founding wide can do.
(Happiness is normally the bottleneck when self founding wide instead of space or science/cultural penalties)

2. Ideal Pantheon for a given game is entirely map dependent.

3. I usually don't build military units before a worker, the starting warrior is sufficient to defend the worker. I would however build the unit that is going to escort your free settler before the settler is born, so for me this would be (your starting stuff Worker,
1st Mayan UU, settler, 2nd Mayan UU, GL)

4. No, each social policy increases the cost of the next, so you complete the Liberty tree fastest by going pure Liberty.
If following completion of Liberty you are annoyed at slow culture expansion, you can add Tradition opener at that time while waiting to be allowed into Rationalism.
Usually Liberty is pared with Order Ideology.

5. When going GL, best result is to unblock Philosophy before completion of it, which allows National College. The faster you complete NC, the higher your science will be.
 
Thank you guys for the input.

1. Almost entirely dependent upon number of unique luxury types near your starting location when founding wide. The almost part is in case Fountain of Youth is near you which would also increase by 1 the number of cities a self founding wide can do.
(Happiness is normally the bottleneck when self founding wide instead of space or science/cultural penalties)
Click to expand...
So is it efficient to create more than 8 cities?
As funny as it might seem: I usually end up with 9:)
But I am trying to plant them fast, so they will have time to pay for themselves.
Also as a rule - I do not locate any cities after turn 200 - bad my math might be bad here.

2. Ideal Pantheon for a given game is entirely map dependent.
Click to expand...

This is basically me asking: shall I take faith panthenon or utility panthenon?
Faith one gives bonus at the start, but that is really usless for Maya (long count gives you 1 prohect, and if you are crazy enought: GE->Haga Sophia->another one). So I usualy favour utility one.
 
If you are confident that you will found, as you can be at Prince (and maybe Maya at any difficulty level), yes a utility pantheon is stronger play.
 
beetle said:
If you are confident that you will found, as you can be at Prince (and maybe Maya at any difficulty level), yes a utility pantheon is stronger play.
Click to expand...

Depends upon the map again. As Maya with their Jungle starts I'd be checking estimated food from Sun God vs estimated faith from faith pantheons (if any). Also if you've decided on turn 0 to go for Culture victory, if you aren't impressed with number of tiles benefiting from Sun God or Religion, then check the number of Jungle tiles.

As an example a map where Gems are your primary luxury as Maya practically screems for Tears of the Gods.
A map where Citrus is your primary luxury calls for Sun God.
Silver or Gold as a primary luxury calls for Sacred Idols

But much of the type, the primary luxury isn't much guidance and you have to fall back on bonus resources.
 
1. Maximum optimal number of Cities?

There's not any sweet math for that. The more cities the better, but only if you get them early enough. On standard the most used number is four cities, but sometimes, due to map characteristics, you will do better with 3 or 5.

2. Advised pantheon + beliefs.

Depends on terrain and the faith you can already generate from wonders + patheon.

3. Build order. Current: Scout, Monument, Shrine (Pyramid), Maya's archer for poor people, worker, settler, GL (second settler from policies).

I maybe would go pyramid first. And maybe don't make another unit until a bit more late, and get a settler going very early.

4.Social policies: Is it good idea to open traidition first(just open), then go to liberty?

Is usually a bit better to go directly with full liberty or tradition, but tradition opener alone is so strong that is worth of consideration. If you want the upper edge, just go full tradition, is ridiculously easy to do great with and the bonuses really count on the long game.

Assuming yes - wonderbuild policy from tradition - worth taking after liberty finished?
Suggested Social policies path+ideology (I usually pick order - but I modded the name to freedom to feel better).

Nope. Better go for policies in medieval and later policy branches. They have a bigger effect mid game. Seems you usually go for many wonders: again, full tradition is your best friend.
 
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