Noob question. Annex/Puppet/Raze

oman19

Chieftain
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
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Hey everyone. Been lurking here since I picked this game up a few months ago. I have learned a ton so thanks for that.

Something I have not been able to get my head around is when to Puppet, Annex and Raze. I read that most puppet but I always find myself annexing.

Can anyone break down when is the best time to use each of the three options or list the pros and cons of each. Thank you so much!
 
Puppet, then annex after it comes out of turmoil if you want the city as a productive city, otherwise leave it puppeted.

Raze if you're having happiness problems, want to relocate the city, or think you won't be able to defend it for long.
 
Depends what you are trying to accomplish, but a decision to annex should accomplish some intended purpose that advances your cause. A few things are (more or less) commonly understood/agreed:

1. If you intend to raze the conquered city, then all things being equal (and sometimes they are not), you should give the raze order immediately after conquering. Even though razing involves temporary annexation, it does not count as a new city for purposes of policy cost escalation. If you puppet and later raze, it does increase your policy costs. If you aren't sure you want to raze right away, just puppet and, before you raze later, keep policy cost implications in mind.

2. For cities you don't raze right away, you should puppet -- at least until the inhabitants are no longer in revolt (red fist under the city banner--if you mouse hover you will see how many turns of revolt remain). If you annex during revolt, you have the worst of all worlds--even more unhappiness and no ability to control the build (i.e., you can't buy or build a courthouse).

3. Puppeted cities have some advantages and disadvantages. The principal advantage is no social policy increase, which can be quite a substantial factor -- annexing some meaningless city can really hurt, while annexing a former capital where the AI built Alhambra can be game winning -- rebuild every culture building you can there and load up the artist specialist slots. Puppets get a haircut (25%, I think) on their contributions of culture and science, but they will be net additive on both, so that is OK, as far as that goes. But, you can't control what puppets build or what tiles/specialist slots the citizens work, and puppets will stay on gold focus, which can be great (you will end up swimmng in gold if you have enough puppets), but that also means that they will prioritize building gold buildings, defensive structures, shrines, and when they run out of things to build, science, culture and happiness buildings--eventually they will build universities and research labs, but too late to really help. And puppets will blindly keep growing, putting pressure on empire-wide happiness, until you replace their farms with trading posts (if they insist on being on gold focus, let them stagnate and work trading posts). You also can't buy anything in puppeted cities, with gold or faith. I guess it sounds pretty negative for puppets, but the social policy hit alone keeps most folks from blithely annexing conquered cities. Strong candidates for annexation are cities that you believe will help you to victory only if you control what they build.

4. When you decide to annex, try to have enough gold ready to buy a courthouse, to cut off the special occupied city unhappiness. You will still have regular city/population unhappiness, which you can deal with in the ordinary ways (happiness buildings, etc.). If you have to hard build the courthouse, the occupied city unhappiness goes on longer. Also, when you do annex, make sure to shift the city's focus from gold focus to whatever focus you desire.
 
Raze if you're having happiness problems, want to relocate the city, or think you won't be able to defend it for long.

Or if it's that one last city that the AI just HAD to squeeze into the area that's all Tundra and Snow, just for the sake of having another city.
 
Hey everyone. Been lurking here since I picked this game up a few months ago. I have learned a ton so thanks for that.

Something I have not been able to get my head around is when to Puppet, Annex and Raze. I read that most puppet but I always find myself annexing.

Can anyone break down when is the best time to use each of the three options or list the pros and cons of each. Thank you so much!

First things first, the main benefit to conquering cities is to deny their use to the enemy.

However, the question of what to do with conquered cities after they have been conquered is largely a tradeoff between increased production/gold AND the increased unhappiness/the increased cost for social policies.

Increasing production and gold in captured cities generally increases the amount of unhappiness and the cost for new social policies.

Here are the specifics. Important points are all in caps.

Puppet:
Pro: Gives conqueror the captured city's cultural borders, culture and benefits of World Wonders in the city, and the captured city's trade route income. DOES NOT INCREASE THE COST OF SOCIAL POLICIES.
Con: Conqueror does NOT have direct control over captured city's production or citizenry. Higher unhappiness than an annexed city of the same size with a courthouse.

Annex:

Pro: Gives conqueror the captured city's cultural borders, World Wonders, and trade route income. GIVES DIRECT CONTROL OF CAPTURED CITY'S PRODUCTION AND CITIZENRY.
Con: Increases cost of social policies. Higher short term unhappiness compared to puppet cities of the same size, can be eliminated with Courthouses.




Raze (on capturing city):
Pro: When the captured city is gone, IT WILL NOT INCREASE THE CONQUEROR'S UNHAPPINESS IN THE LONG TERM. DOES NOT INCREASE THE COST OF SOCIAL POLICIES.
Con: If the burnt city had World Wonders, they are gone forever. Conquering empire loses the cultural borders and trade route income from a city that has been razed to the ground. Razing has the highest short term unhappiness of all three options.

Raze (after annexing/puppet):
Pro: When the city is burnt to the ground, IT WILL NOT INCREASE THE CONQUEROR'S UNHAPPINESS IN THE LONG TERM. Can be reversed before city is burnt to the ground.
Con: If the burnt city had World Wonders, they are gone forever. Conquering empire loses the cultural borders and trade route income from a city that has been razed to the ground. Razing has the highest short term unhappiness of all three options. RAZING A CITY AFTER ANNEXING OR PUPPETTING WILL PERMANENTLY INCREASE THE COST OF SOCIAL POLICIES.


So, when should one annex a city? When should one puppet a city? When should one raze a city?

If a captured city is worth having direct control over its production and citizens, then it should be annexed.

If a captured city has lackluster production/commerce value AND the conquering empire has lots of excess happiness, the captured city should be puppetted, so that Social Policy costs stay low.

If a captured city has lackluster production/commerce value AND the conquering empire does NOT have lots of excess happiness, the captured city should either be puppeted and sold to another empire OR razed immediately when captured. For example, I've been playing the Mongolian scenario a lot recently, and I raze the majority of the cities I conquer, because their unhappiness outweighs what they provide.



I rarely raze cities after I annex them or puppet them. I don't really see the point.
 
Another big plus for annexing a city is so you can produce units. Annexing puppets on a new continent is definitely a way to get your toe into the waters on a new field of battle.

Can anyone think of a situation where you would ever want to immediately annex a city? I can't for the life of me think of one, since a city won't allow any production or even purchasing while it's in rebellion.
 
Another big plus for annexing a city is so you can produce units. Annexing puppets on a new continent is definitely a way to get your toe into the waters on a new field of battle.

Can anyone think of a situation where you would ever want to immediately annex a city? I can't for the life of me think of one, since a city won't allow any production or even purchasing while it's in rebellion.

Yes. In a close space race game on deity I needed aluminum and the only way to get it was to capture a city annex it and buy an adjacent aluminum tile. I did not think I could wait since a neighboring civ lcould buy or expand to that tile.
 
Acknowledged, but still worth noting separately. This is one of the big problems with the AI never annexing cities; it can't use those (far away) cites to produce units.

:: shrugs ::

Maybe I need to bump up to a higher difficulty, but unit production by itself is never a reason for me to annex a city.

Why? Because I'm stingy with my military units...if I find a combat unit in danger of dying, I pull it out of combat to heal as quickly as possible. That means I generally don't need more than 4 cities pumping out combat units at any given time, and I definitely don't want my Social Policies to be more expensive than they already are. I find that military production is more than sufficient from one city and a couple of Militaristic City States.

About the only reason I would annex a captured city is to rush build a harbor to guarantee a trade route to the capital, if the captured city was on a different continent. I have also annexed cities to force them to build Temples in order to get the 1000 Temples achievement, but this has nothing to do with military production.

Theoretically, I suppose I would annex a coastal city if it was the only city I had that was capable of producing naval combat units on the ocean I needed, but I've never encountered this situation, so...
 
Yes. In a close space race game on deity I needed aluminum and the only way to get it was to capture a city annex it and buy an adjacent aluminum tile. I did not think I could wait since a neighboring civ lcould buy or expand to that tile.

That's an advantage of annexation that I forgot to mention. Not only does a player have direct control of a city's production and citizenry, it also has direct control over whether it can BUY tiles.

I look at annexation as much better than puppet cities, if the motivation is something for the short term, like building military units for conquest, space parts for a science victory or Temples for the Temple achievement. :D

Puppet cities are better for the long term goal of Social Policy acquisition.
 
Not sure if it was mentioned above, but when a city is puppeted, it actually only gets 75% of the culture it produces, not all of it. However, it also gives 75% of the science it produces too.
 
Mintcandy, is the fact you stated about a puppeted city having more unhappiness than an annexed city with a courthouse actually true? I believe I have tested this before and thats not the case. I believe it is actually something like

puppeted city: 2 unhappiness per city plus population ( same as a regular city)
annexed city: 4 unhappiness per city plus population ( called an occupied city)
annex with courthouse: reverts back to puppeted city unhappiness rates

So actually I believe you only get more unhappiness by having an annexed city with no courthouse, aka an occupied city.
 
Mintcandy, is the fact you stated about a puppeted city having more unhappiness than an annexed city with a courthouse actually true?

Actually, I assumed that annexing with a courthouse was less unhappiness than a puppet city of the same size. I've never actually tried it out myself side by side.....
 
Why? Because I'm stingy with my military units...if I find a combat unit in danger of dying, I pull it out of combat to heal as quickly as possible. That means I generally don't need more than 4 cities pumping out combat units at any given time, and I definitely don't want my Social Policies to be more expensive than they already are. I find that military production is more than sufficient from one city and a couple of Militaristic City States.

Sometimes it's not possible to rescue a unit that's taken an unexpectly high amount of damage. And sometimes units have to be sacrificed in a final push toward a long term goal (i.e., taking a high-defense capital). I'd rather have the safety of knowing I can immediately or much more quickly replace a unit I've lost if I need to.

Also, another reason to possibly annex over puppet is trade route connections. Puppets will not build harbors (or do so very late into their build cycle), and you need at least one harbor to connect your overseas empire.
 
Also, another reason to possibly annex over puppet is trade route connections. Puppets will not build harbors (or do so very late into their build cycle), and you need at least one harbor to connect your overseas empire.

This is another reason you should probably have at least one annexed city on every continent.
 
Don't forget to analyze your military position carefully before razing. An otherwise worthless city can be very handy for extending the reach of your air force and a puppet will work for this.

However, when a city is captured I've found that defensive buildings (walls, castle, etc.) are lost, so you'd want to annex ASAP ofter the city comes out of unrest to improve defense, particularly since capture knocks the population down and that reduces the defense of the city as well. Puppets concentrate on gold production so population growth can be very slow.

Some civs spam cities. On a military campaign, it usually doesn't make sense to hold a dense array of cities, so keep only the biggest cities that you capture as the higher population will help their defense. Small pockets (isolated cities) left in control of the enemy have never proved a problem in my experience. Cut off from roads/railroads they just sit there, ready to be mopped up after you've reduced the opposing army at the active front.

Another military factor - be careful about razing on coasts, as leaving a big patch of territory open is an invitation for another civ, yes even a good friendly civ, to grab a toehold while you are busy on your campaign.
 
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