OCC culture vic much harder now?

TractorBoy · Nov 9, 2012

kamex said:
Or, if the OP is stating its simply 'harder' than it was before, either

This is exactly what Smokeybear eloquantly stated and at no point did he ask for an explanation of how to play an OCC culture game, he simply wanted to know if he is not alone with his post patch struggles.

Good luck Smokeybear.

apocalypse105 · Nov 9, 2012

Try playing on a standard continent map thats a perfect map for OCC

if you pick huge every single AI just has to many cities because they have more room to expand ..

kamex · Nov 9, 2012

apocalypse105 said:
Try playing on a standard continent map thats a perfect map for OCC

if you pick huge every single AI just has to many cities because they have more room to expand ..

I agree. You might want to make your city coastal in this case, otherwise you will have to rely on the other Civs finding you. You'll miss out on some city states too (unless you embark a Scout to the other continent maybe)

The_J · Nov 9, 2012

kamex said:
No. You are doing something wrong.

Smokeybear said:
Third, kindly can the eye-rolling at players who aren't up to your diety-snob level. Nobody appreciates it.

King_Course said:
Man you just write the same whine post over and over again.

Moderator Action: this is not how a discussion on CFC should look.
A bit more constructive, and less hostile please.

TractorBoy · Nov 9, 2012

Sidor1982 said:
All my OCC's cultural games post-patch were successful (Immortal). And the deity ones are just as difficult as they were pre-patch (but of course not impossible).

Back to the OP, he was talking about playing King level on a huge pangea map.
If you take a look at the HOF site where some of the top guys compete against one another, you will find that all the Deity, immortal and Emperor cultural games played have been on ocean maps. You have to go down to prince level to see an abundance of single major continent type maps, this is not to say that they are not playable at high levels but they are a heck of alot more difficult!
What type of map have you been achieving your immortal victories on?
Do you use abundant resources?
How many opponents do you play against?
Do you enable Policy saving?

Sidor1982 said:
1. AI concentrates on expansion instead on science (most cases, ie. AI's like Korea don't do that). So it's easier to keep up in science in OCC than pre-patch.

Expansion is science and with a worker for every City, small Cities grow alot faster than large ones.

bcaiko · Nov 9, 2012

Hmmm...well, OCC is called a "challenge" for a reason. I think the G&K expansion itself made OCC more difficult. There's no reason on a Culture Victory to keep to less than four cities anymore. Happiness is easier to come by if you work for it, and with Golden Ages providing culture now, you can make up for the lost ground in social policy cost. Frankly, if you aren't going for OCC, keeping to one city post G&K is a suicide tactic.

Congrats to the OP for taking on the challege. I would assume the OP is correct, though, that OCCs are even more difficult post-patch.

Smokeybear said:
Yes, I suppose playing it on a huge map did give the AI those advantages, the way things work now. Sad you have to even take such things into consideration. Map size shouldn't matter to any victory condition-

Errr - Domination Victory. Map size is absolutely a consideration for that victory type. On a small map, Domination is as easy as pie, but on a very large map, Domination can be all but impossible if other Civs aren't helping you by taking each other right.

More than that, larger maps mean more competition from other Civs. It forces you to play defense more, pings you with wonder stealing or Religious Beliefs lost, means more votes needed from City States for Diplo. There are trade offs, but map size (and more directly, the number of Civs on map) is always going to affect your decision making.

OCC on a Huge map is quite a challenge, no doubt.

kamex said:
No. You are doing something wrong. When people can win Science OCC on Diety, you can't moan saying its impossible to keep up in science.

whyidie said:
Guy poses a simple question and gets pounced on for being a whiner and a ding-dong. Nice.

Yes, let's do try to be civil, folks.

Also, has anyone successfully played an entire Diety OCC post-patch? Otherwise, kamex, you're not really addressing the OP's question: are OCCs more difficult post patch? And, even then, I'd be interested to hear if that player (which, in all honesty, is decidedly not me!) finds a OCC to be more difficult.

It could also be that the OP stuggled in his/her latest game because of the map conditions. That does happen, even if you're doing everything you can right.

Hammer Rabbi · Nov 9, 2012

bcaiko said:
Hmmm...well, OCC is called a "challenge" for a reason. I think the G&K expansion itself made OCC more difficult. There's no reason on a Culture Victory to keep to less than four cities anymore. Happiness is easier to come by if you work for it, and with Golden Ages providing culture now, you can make up for the lost ground in social policy cost. Frankly, if you aren't going for OCC, keeping to one city post G&K is a suicide tactic.

I prefer culture vics using a pseudo-OCC. I just build my capital and take lots of puppets. (I dont click the OCC option.) Since puppets dont increase your policy costs it is great to take them for more gold and some strategic capitals/cities for wonders and lux's. i havent tried this in GnK yet but its on my list of stuff to try since happiness is better balanced.

kamex · Nov 9, 2012

bcaiko said:
Also, has anyone successfully played an entire Diety OCC post-patch? Otherwise, kamex, you're not really addressing the OP's question: are OCCs more difficult post patch? And, even then, I'd be interested to hear if that player (which, in all honesty, is decidedly not me!) finds a OCC to be more difficult.

It could also be that the OP stuggled in his/her latest game because of the map conditions. That does happen, even if you're doing everything you can right.

No. I havn't. As I've said before I don't play Deity. But the OP was saying that they play King. I know that strategy works up to at least Immortal as I've seen it done, not post patch granted, but I can't see anything about the patch that would make it more difficult - except...

a) AI is slightly more aggressive early game.

b) AI expands more aggressively.

Now if your playing huge maps, and restricting yourself to one city, its going to be slightly harder than it was pre patch, because the AI expands faster and further, and on huge maps at least, has the room to do it. Smaller maps the difference won't be as extreme because although the AI wants to expand, all free space is taken up. Does that answer the OP?

Smokeybear · Nov 9, 2012

bcaiko said:
Yes, let's do try to be civil, folks.

Also, has anyone successfully played an entire Diety OCC post-patch? Otherwise, kamex, you're not really addressing the OP's question: are OCCs more difficult post patch? And, even then, I'd be interested to hear if that player (which, in all honesty, is decidedly not me!) finds a OCC to be more difficult.

It could also be that the OP stuggled in his/her latest game because of the map conditions. That does happen, even if you're doing everything you can right.

Thank you sir, for this post. My original post was in no way a request for basic tips on how to play OCC or culture or science games. It was simply a statement of my experiences with an OCC culture game post-patch, and asking if others had similar experiences. Reading for content and not assuming, goes a long ways (Kamex).

It was a learning experience for me, as I'd never done a huge OCC game before, and trying one in the new post-patch environment was definitely not the optimal way to go, it turns out ;-)

As for the actual game, I think I played a pretty fair science side at the start, to go along with my cultural victory goal, yet I was blown away by the huge science boost the AI ICS exploders got on that map by the end of the Classical period, with the new conditions that prevail. It was frighteningly awesome how fast Bismarck got a rocket built, and he wasn't even the biggest civ in the game.

Smokeybear · Nov 9, 2012

kamex said:
No. I havn't. As I've said before I don't play Deity. But the OP was saying that they play King. I know that strategy works up to at least Immortal as I've seen it done, not post patch granted, but I can't see anything about the patch that would make it more difficult - except...

a) AI is slightly more aggressive early game.

b) AI expands more aggressively.

Now if your playing huge maps, and restricting yourself to one city, its going to be slightly harder than it was pre patch, because the AI expands faster and further, and on huge maps at least, has the room to do it. Smaller maps the difference won't be as extreme because although the AI wants to expand, all free space is taken up. Does that answer the OP?

Not until you've actually played an OCC game similiar to mine, post patch. Until then, you are just guessing from outdated data.

tommynt · Nov 9, 2012

how about ending the thread with:

The TE just didnt play good enough.

Obviously u can win on king difficulty with every setup and every "strategy" u choose and obviously its possible with Babylon more easy as with most others.

Obviously aswell a big map doesnt help a occ setup too much.
What u should do on such a big map is proly to backstab same far away civs - not like they are going to kill you ...

Smokeybear · Nov 9, 2012

tommynt said:
how about ending the thread with:

The TE just didnt play good enough.

Obviously u can win on king difficulty with every setup and every "strategy" u choose and obviously its possible with Babylon more easy as with most others.

Obviously aswell a big map doesnt help a occ setup too much.
What u should do on such a big map is proly to backstab same far away civs - not like they are going to kill you ...

Pardon me if I ignore your feeble attempt at 'helping', due to the unhelpful tone and lack of any useful commentary. Again, I wasn't asking for help, I was asking if any other people had done a similar OCC culture game post patch and what their experiences have been. The concensus seems to be 'stick to easier map sizes', and yes, I recognize now that was a mistake on my part, after the fact. But I remain curious to hear the input of those who are actually doing OCC culture games post patch (I assume somebody must be), on any maps standard size and above- whether they are finding it about the same, more difficult, and if so, why.

Udey1 · Nov 9, 2012

edit: my comment isn't what OP is looking for.

budweiser · Nov 9, 2012

I might try a King OCC cultural later. There are still some civs I need a win with, like the mongols

bcaiko · Nov 9, 2012

kamex said:
No. I havn't. As I've said before I don't play Deity. ...I can't see anything about the patch that would make it more difficult - except...

a) AI is slightly more aggressive early game.

b) AI expands more aggressively.

Right, I asked if anyone has completed a Diety OCC post-patch. If so, I (and I assume the OP), would certainly be interested to hear how that went and if they found it more challenging than pre-patch.

I think what you mentioned above alone would make OCC more difficult. The achilles heel of OCC is always military threats and being able to repel them quickly so you can get back on task. Certain AIs are not only more aggressive (and earlier because they'll spend gold on units), they are more competently so, attacking in swarms. Also, the AI is more prone to pillaging now, which can wreck a OCC for several turns.

Aggressive expansion is dangerous for a OCC, as an expansive AI may plop a city right into the exandable territory of the player's lone city. And an expansive AI of course can take a large Science advantage.

Finally, the patch's change to the levels of friendliness (i.e. stretching out the extreme ends so one can't become hated or loved by the AI quite so quickly), makes it more difficult to create quick allies that will enter into DOFs and Research Agreements. This will force a OCC player to explore more and quicker, as those relationships will need to be tended to over the course of time (though, once developed, they should stand stronger and longer than pre-patch).

All of this makes me suspect that a OCC would indeed be more difficult post-patch, as the OP surmises. But, I'll also admit I haven't tried it yet.

Hammer Rabbi · Nov 9, 2012

well, i think all victory conditions are harder now. ai pillaging, RAs weaker, broke (poor, not broken) AIs because they spend more gold now, rapid expansion/aggression, wonder prioritizing has changed (maybe worse, maybe better--not sure yet), changed tech path (railroads) and they nerfed some units (for both ai and humans).

i dont think the occ culture specification is really necessary to debate. the game was viewed as abuse-able and easy before some of these fixes so i think in the name of balance the game is intentionally supposed to be harder. occ is on my 'to do' list when i get the time. holidays and other games are taking chunks out of it right now.

budweiser · Nov 9, 2012

Overall, I think the effect of the patch was just to stretch the game out a bit more. Winning in 200/500 turns on the hardest level to me says something is wrong. I'm kinda glad it takes more turns to play a game now.

Sidor1982 · Nov 9, 2012

What type of map have you been achieving your immortal victories on?
Do you use abundant resources?
How many opponents do you play against?
Do you enable Policy saving?

1. Mostly Fractal as the new map type
2. No
3. 5-7 as my laptop cannot process larger maps
4. No

TractorBoy · Nov 9, 2012

Sidor1982 said:
What type of map have you been achieving your immortal victories on?
Do you use abundant resources?
How many opponents do you play against?
Do you enable Policy saving?

1. Mostly Fractal as the new map type
2. No
3. 5-7 as my laptop cannot process larger maps
4. No

Fair play to you, I have no doubts you are a very good player (perhaps you should join the HOF site, with a CV like yours you would do very well there).
On a Fractal map atleast you get the opportunity to be positioned out of harms way and playing against 5-7 opponents is hardly comparable to what the OP is talking about.
I don't play OCCs but in my experiences post patch on Large Pangea maps King level there has been atleast one runawy AI civ in every game, as a consequence the other civs (those that still remain by the Renaisance), have no money for RAs and this runaway civ has to be dealt with sooner rather than later.
Basically my experiences echo what the OP has stated, we learn from our experiences and adjustments will have to be made.

whyidie · Nov 9, 2012

So you're 'just stating its harder' without complaining about it, and not asking for help? I don't really see any grounds for a conversation then...

All I'll do is point to the conversation that has occurred in this very thread. It may not be of interest to you, but I for one find it interesting. New patch. AI plays differently. Discuss the consequences. Talk about alternatives. Fun stuff for me. Maybe not interesting to you, but interesting enough to me to try a similar setup.

Love the balls? Believe it or not this wasn't intended to sound patronising. I'm simply saying if the condition can be achieved at x difficulty level, then it must also be achievable at all levels below it. Thus if you can't implement at said lower level, you are doing something wrong. Simple.

I'll believe it. We do spend a lot of time worrying about offending people. With that being said, given the overall tone of your posts I don't blame the OP for being a bit put off.

Originally Posted by TractorBoy
Whatever type of game we play (OCCs in particular) and indeed whatever the level, we are going to have to make adjustments post patch.

No way. Really?

No. This is what I get for answering a question quickly and concisely. Question: "I can't win cultural OCC". Answer: "Here's strategy proven to work at Immortal / Deity, it will work on King". Or, if the OP is stating its simply 'harder' than it was before, either:

a) Adapt your strategy to the new balance changes

b) Refine you strategy to improve your speed

c) Lower the difficulty level

If you don't ask a specific question nobody can help you.

Yeah, its the second question. NOT the first. Now that you've addressed it, lets take a look at your suggestions :

a) Adapt your strategy to the new balance changes

INDEED! Lets talk about specific ways to do that! By the way, I have none as I have not tried this until the OP brought it to light.

b) Refine you strategy to improve your speed

CORRECT AGAIN! Lets talk about how to do that post patch, preferably in specifics....

c) Lower the difficulty level

Booh! Its beatable on King. Everyone knows it. Lets stick with that level since it seems to present an unexpected challenge post patch.

Smokeybear said:
The concensus seems to be 'stick to easier map sizes', and yes, I recognize now that was a mistake on my part, after the fact. But I remain curious to hear the input of those who are actually doing OCC culture games post patch (I assume somebody must be), on any maps standard size and above- whether they are finding it about the same, more difficult, and if so, why.

Don't back down now man! After reading this thread I started up a similar game. Not strictly OCC (can't make the commitment) but shooting for culture and limiting my cities on huge/king/Terra.

In terms of input, so far so good. Still have only one city. Random civ and I rolled Siam. So far I've been pretty lucky in that the AI have been pretty focused on each other without getting around to me yet. Spain has the look of a runaway but I can still beat them back if I make it a priority. Granted its early as we've just hit Medieval Era and I got to it after two other Civs. So they're starting to pull ahead, I've got to figure out the alliances (diplomacy is jello, alliances are too loose) as RA's are the only way I'll be able to stay afloat as we reach the renaissance.

OCC culture vic much harder now?

Prince

Deity

Emperor

Say No 2 Net Validations

Prince

Emperor

Deity

Emperor

Emperor

Emperor

Emperor

Emperor

Prince

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Emperor

Deity

King of the Beers

Warlord

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