Shoshone the terrible

TheMarshmallowBear · Nov 22, 2013

Veras said:
The Terrible sounds so outdated for Autocracy. I mean: The president, The chairman and.. The terrible? I mean, they're all titles indicating the role of the leader. Autocracy is the only one that remains with a 'nickname'.
If we already pick the venetian term 'Doge', it wouldn't hurt if we had the 'Fuhrer' or the 'Duce' or even the 'Generalíssimo'.

While I agree with you, there are three problems with those.

Fuhrer would most likely be enough to ban the game in Germany, and quite frankly would probably "hint" (albeit, obviously not true) that Firaxis frigging supports the Nazis (which they don't, I'm just pointing out the obvious)

While Duce and Generalissimo (as well as Fuhrer) are too "ethnic" titles, However, a good title for Autocracy, which seems to very military-oriented, would be "General" i.e "General Ghandi of India" :lol:

(although, I can assume that Generalissimo mean General anyway)

Viregel · Nov 22, 2013

georgie said:

That's what I was thinking too. :goodjob:

As for an Autocracy title, Archduke may work. I agree on having "the Navigator" for Exploration as well, but I think that Aesthetics needs a better title as well.

Dogmouth · Nov 22, 2013

Louis XXIV said:
Captain feels like a demotion. It should be "the Navigator" like Henry the Navigator.

You think Captain and you think of someone who commands a ship and takes orders from someone else who runs the country.

That's what I was thinking. As "captain," should I be taking orders from my Great Admiral?

Louis XXIV · Nov 22, 2013

Veras said:
The Terrible sounds so outdated for Autocracy. I mean: The president, The chairman and.. The terrible? I mean, they're all titles indicating the role of the leader. Autocracy is the only one that remains with a 'nickname'.
If we already pick the venetian term 'Doge', it wouldn't hurt if we had the 'Fuhrer' or the 'Duce' or even the 'Generalíssimo'.

Generalissimo sounds the most broadly applicable. Even General would work (quite a few autocratic Generals who are rulers or de facto rulers). The only problem is you want a title that could encompass Hitler and Mussolini, neither of whom were Generals.

sendos · Nov 22, 2013

How about emperor for autocratic leaders?

Veras · Nov 22, 2013

Yeah, I can imagine the problems of having "Fuhrer Casimir III of Poland", "Fuhrer Catherine of Russia", "Fuhrer Elizabeth of England", "Fuhrer Napoleon of France". Worse, imagine a "Fuhrer Shaka of the Zulus" or "Fuhrer Askia of Songhai", defenders of the white power.

Not that I wanted these suggestions, only mentioning. General would probably be the best.

zukenft · Nov 23, 2013

'supreme leader' sounds generic but autocratic enough for me. quite funny if used for (north) korea.

Strategist83 · Nov 23, 2013

'Captain' is particularly bad, but then again the whole Exploration tree is bad - seriously, it should still have kept the name 'Commerce' (as well as the picture from Commerce!) and then what is now Commerce should have been named something else.

'The Terrible' works quite well - Civ V emphasizes the negative aspects of autocracy so the name suits. The obvious more neutral alternative would be simply 'Dictator'.

'Master/Mistress' should probably have inherited the 'Enlightened' title from Patronage which could do with a better fitting name anyway.

Navelgazer · Nov 23, 2013

"President-for-Life" for Autocracy?
And I definitely think exploration should simply get "The Explorer," rather than "Captain." (And the Exploration tree is very situational. Most times you won't need it at all, but sometimes it'll be key.)

leadtothehead · Nov 24, 2013

Strategist83 said:
'Captain' is particularly bad, but then again the whole Exploration tree is bad - seriously, it should still have kept the name 'Commerce' (as well as the picture from Commerce!) and then what is now Commerce should have been named something else.

'The Terrible' works quite well - Civ V emphasizes the negative aspects of autocracy so the name suits. The obvious more neutral alternative would be simply 'Dictator'.

'Master/Mistress' should probably have inherited the 'Enlightened' title from Patronage which could do with a better fitting name anyway.

Yeah finding a generic term for Autocratic leaders is difficult General, Dictator, or Terrible are the ones that seem to fit, generally a Autocratic ruler has a strong nationalist flavor to themselves so the titles they give themselves tend to be unique to the nation they rule (Fuhrer, Duce, Marshal, General, Emperor ect.), , where as President and Chairman are more universally used for rulers of the other two ideologies.

JFD · Nov 24, 2013

Veras said:
The Terrible sounds so outdated for Autocracy. I mean: The president, The chairman and.. The terrible? I mean, they're all titles indicating the role of the leader. Autocracy is the only one that remains with a 'nickname'.
If we already pick the venetian term 'Doge', it wouldn't hurt if we had the 'Fuhrer' or the 'Duce' or even the 'Generalíssimo'.

Doge is Latin and is literally similar to Duke. The problem with 'Fuhrer' or 'Generalissimo' are the association of Furher with Hitler and the modern negative connotations associated with Autocracy, respectively. That said, they gave President to Freedom, so it's not like there isn't precedent. Generalissimo would probably be more flavoursome than the Terrible anyway.

While Duce and Generalissimo (as well as Fuhrer) are too "ethnic" titles, However, a good title for Autocracy, which seems to very military-oriented, would be "General" i.e "General Ghandi of India"

Sure you can say that with Duce, but Generalissimo is a very trans-ethnic title.

Viregel said:
As for an Autocracy title, Archduke may work. I agree on having "the Navigator" for Exploration as well, but I think that Aesthetics needs a better title as well.

That makes no sense. Very few - if any - sovereign Archdukes have been autocratic.

I think Firaxis chose well with the Terrible. It does not fall victim to the erroneous associations that exist between military or monarchical titles and Autocrats. Actually, they could have just used Autocrat as the title - that was the Russian title.

Louis XXIV · Nov 24, 2013

Well, Generalissimo is a Spanish word, so I wouldn't say trans-ethnic (it is trans-national, though). General is the, um, more general title

It would work well and apply for all nationalities.

Monkeyfinger · Nov 24, 2013

georgie said:

shiba

JFD · Nov 25, 2013

Louis XXIV said:
Well, Generalissimo is a Spanish word, so I wouldn't say trans-ethnic (it is trans-national, though). General is the, um, more general title It would work well and apply for all nationalities.

Generalissimus then. General itself is a bit too common.

Louis XXIV · Nov 25, 2013

Yeah, but it's also common for autocratic leaders. Generalissimo is just "the greatest general" or some other similar superlative, so it would fall under the broader category of General. And you get General El-Sisi in Egypt, General Musharraf in Pakistan, etc. The South Vietnamese junta was just a series of Generals like Duong Van Minh and Nguyen Khanh. On top of that, you have the Generalissimos: Francisco Franco, Chiang Kai-Shek, and Rafael Trujillo.

That being said, I'm warming up to Generalissimo, but mostly because it's certainly more universal than Doge. It's also a preferred term of both revolutionary leaders (Miguel Hidalgo y Costilla, Emilio Aguinaldo, Ihsan Nuri, Mohammad Iqbal Shedai) and Communist leaders (Josef Stalin, Kim Il-Sung, Kim Jong-Il), which I don't view as a problem (certainly, President has been equally used as the title for dictators).

I think changing Exploration to "The Navigator" is the bigger priority, though.

Magma_Dragoon · Nov 25, 2013

georgie said:

I see your Doge and raise you one Doge Doge

Spoiler :

Btw, anyone know how to scale down an image with bb code?

JFD · Nov 25, 2013

Louis XXIV said:
Yeah, but it's also common for autocratic leaders. Generalissimo is just "the greatest general" or some other similar superlative, so it would fall under the broader category of General. And you get General El-Sisi in Egypt, General Musharraf in Pakistan, etc. The South Vietnamese junta was just a series of Generals like Duong Van Minh and Nguyen Khanh. On top of that, you have the Generalissimos: Francisco Franco, Chiang Kai-Shek, and Rafael Trujillo.

That being said, I'm warming up to Generalissimo, but mostly because it's certainly more universal than Doge. It's also a preferred term of both revolutionary leaders (Miguel Hidalgo y Costilla, Emilio Aguinaldo, Ihsan Nuri, Mohammad Iqbal Shedai) and Communist leaders (Josef Stalin, Kim Il-Sung, Kim Jong-Il), which I don't view as a problem (certainly, President has been equally used as the title for dictators).

I think changing Exploration to "The Navigator" is the bigger priority, though.

Don't get me wrong, I prefer "the Terrible" as it is, because with General being such a - well... you know... general - title it'd be a bit perverse to associate Generals with Autocracy in the same way we tend to (read: Firaxis has tended to) associate Chairmen with Order or Presidents with Freedom; a little underwhelming and possibly offensive to some in the same way giving Piety a title over an epithet would have been.

Of course, I'm not that happy with "the Terrible," or the system they used any way - it's far too simplified.

But yes - totally - Exploration should have had "the Navigator."

Rolvinator · Nov 26, 2013

One out of the many, many small flavory features I enjoyed with the RFC Mod for Civ IV was how your title, and indeed the name of your civilization changed according to your size and the social policies you'd picked. I'd really love to have something like that for Civ V as well

JHoov714 · Nov 27, 2013

For Autocracy I like Dictator or even better, King. That's basically what you are anyway in that situation. Some Kings fought alongside their armies in history, some did not. Some Kings took advice from a council, some did not. Most Kings ultimately could make whatever choices they wanted, whether that always worked out for them or not is another conversation. A fitting title I think. :king:

Cahillicus · Nov 27, 2013

PhroX said:
Heh, it always reminds me of this:

Shoshone the terrible

Benelovent Chieftain of the Ursu Kingdom

, The Rt. Hon.

King

Le Roi Soleil

Immortal

Prince

Xx420NoWondeRHon0rStaRtxX

King

King

Chieftain

Kathigitarkh

Le Roi Soleil

Deity

Kathigitarkh

Le Roi Soleil

Reploid

Kathigitarkh

Chieftain

Chieftain

Warlord

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