Temple of Artemis Obsolete - or Enhanced?

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Cicerosaurus

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In the title you could substitute most wonders.

However, with the Temple you had enhanced growth plus a bonus when producing ranged units.

However, now with Religion the majority of advantages can be replicated (or pretty closely replicated) by adopting the appropriate belief.

For instance you could adopt the Pantheon belief Goddess of the Hunt or the Follower Belief Feed the World to get increased food costs.

Both of these increase food supply and don't require the early massive input to build the Temple.

Of course none of these beliefs may be able to be attained, but obviously there is no guarantee that you will build the Temple.

On the other hand, the stacking capacity of the Temple plus these beliefs is great. Plus it could be argued that you can adopt beliefs to increase happiness which the growth spurt from the Temple could cause to be a problem.

So what side of the divide do you lie?

(I will be the first to put my hand up and admit I haven't dreamed up any complex mathematical fomulae to test my theories).
 
I think Artemis is still relevant just for the increase of production of ranged units. That is actually the only reason I even want to build it. However, the wonder that really hit the crapper post expansion is Hanging Gardens. Free garden is meh, and the plus six food in one city is countered by, as you say, growth increasing religions.
 
I think you're confused about the term "obsolete". Having more options does not cause the Temple to be obsolete. Growth beliefs do not "counter" the temple or hanging gardens, they are additional options - nothing prevents you from trying to get both. By the same logic, Hanging Gardens or Temple allows you to focus your religion on non-growth beliefs.
 
I built Hanging Gardens on a playthrough as Gustavus for the early Great People boost; didn't end the game with a spectacular population in my capital. Even stacked with Pisa later (but not Freedom), I think I got more GP from Patronage than home grown.
 
Cicerosaurus said:
I'm not confused about obsolete. Definition "no longer useful". I am asking if it is still useful, or even if it is more useful.
Click to expand...

I'd say it's even more useful now.

Go tradition, get the temple of artemis, all food beliefs and watch your capital grow every 3-4 turns.
Build the national college and you'll get an insane amount of science. Especially when you start near a mountain and can build an observatory as well.

Most powerful with Monty, India and Korea.

Probably the best science wonder for going tall.
 
It isn't obsolet just because you can get similar boni.

Just play a game where you focus on growth. With Temple of Artemis, Fertility Rites and the other 15% growth bonus while at peace you can get +35%. Combine that with Aztecs Floating Garden and you have 50% more growth. In the right Area with a couple of food ressources, River, a quick Aqueduct (maybe via Tradition) you can achieve an insane empire.
 
Temple of artemis and floating gardens are +% Base food.
The rest are +% excess food. the difference is huge.
 
Omega124 said:
I think Artemis is still relevant just for the increase of production of ranged units. That is actually the only reason I even want to build it. However, the wonder that really hit the crapper post expansion is Hanging Gardens. Free garden is meh, and the plus six food in one city is countered by, as you say, growth increasing religions.
Click to expand...

No, with a growth increasing belief providing an extra 10%, the Hanging Gardens will provide 6.6 food instead of 6, thus making it even better then before. The more food you have, the more you'll get out of that percentage bonus.
 
Knut_Are_M said:
Temple of artemis and floating gardens are +% Base food.
The rest are +% excess food. the difference is huge.
Click to expand...

I don't think that is correct. The Temple provides for 10% growth, not an extra percentage of base food. So if your City is unhappy even with the Temple you can be losing food.

Goddess of the Hunt provides one extra food for a camp. Percentages don't come into it.
 
Cicerosaurus said:
Maybe it could provide Gardens in six cities or something? I rarely get to build it- the AI seems to place more emphasis on it than I do.
Click to expand...

It's a good wonder.

Personally, I'm more Great Library or Stonehedge starts (lately more stonehedge because I have fewer fails on Immortal, where I play most of my games) for the "I don't know how I want to win just yet" games. Bar that I also like Great Lighthouse or Colossus.

For Domination games... If I have to get a wonder it's the Statue of Zeus (they buffed cities so much it's honestly annoying :p)

Temple of Artemis is just this mix that I'm not real big on... 15% will take forever to get back the worth in hammers in almost any game. 10% growth is kinda nice, I'm probably under estimating it.

Personally I've been making my starter builds around 1 or 2 wonders at most if I even go for one. I just can't find myself fitting the Temple when you can get more tangible bonuses. I could just be missing something.
 
Thanks Furycrab. I like the extra growth but then I *always* expand too early to grab the good locations and go negative on happiness. So all the extra growth is worthless (almost) due to the unhappiness penalty.
 
Hanging gardens has been nerved yes, but rightly so. It was way too powerfull before, this was only countered by the fact it was on a poor tech path. This is much less so with current techtree.

The garden is indeed meh, but it does allow a garden in a city that normally wouldn't have one. And 6 food is still a pretty nice boost tbh. It just went from one of the best wonders to a middle one.

Artemis has always been middle class. The bonusses have no synergy, but in the case you could want both it can still be worthwhile. And it's also the earliest GE point am i right?
 
I think you're correct about the Engineer point CYE. That is always helpful (to me) because a GE normally comes along when I can start Machu Picchu. I always need gold :(
 
GE is still a very powerfull GP. However, if you're investing in religion you can count on your GE to be delayed because of the prophets. I don't like this myself. I feel like I have to choose between religion or specialists...

If you're not going for faith, you're building a relatively tall empire and are planning to build ranged units to fill up your army in the future. Then Artemis is really awesome, and relatively cheap too.
 
Cicerosaurus said:
I'm not confused about obsolete. Definition "no longer useful". I am asking if it is still useful, or even if it is more useful.
Click to expand...

Is +15% more growth empire-wide and +15% (?) production speed on ranged units still useful ?

Of course it is ! ;)

More useful than what ? Other wonders ? Or just more useful because of/despite religion ? :confused:

As you know, the benefits stack, so it's definitely not less useful by default.

How useful really depends on the situation, but I really wouldn't use the world "obsolete" here, it's a far too strong word for something that will always be useful in some way, only slightly more or less depending on the situation. :rolleyes:
 
Question is can you still build it? Never really tried, but on Immortal it basically has to be the second thing, right? Scout -> Artemis? That way you do not get Stonehedge -> no religion if not religious civ.
 
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