Viability of Ancient/Classical Wonders on Deity

To me, the early wonders have the greatest impact in the game, especially on deity, where the AI is ahead on techs and resources early. (I won't say how many times I've seen GL go on T26-28) Early on you won't have the workers to chop forests, or the pop to work production tiles, not to mention horrible production due to lack of improvements. The investments are huge because you have to delay settlers/shrine/archer, and sometimes move away from your normal tech path, and if you don't get it, it really hurts your game. But if you do get it, like GL/SH/Petra, they're quite awesome. Later on in the game when you're past the renaissance, you can basically get whatever wonders you want if you're playing properly.

So on a list of viability, for any civ, on standard deity, how would you rank the wonders in the ancient/classical era? Here's a list of ancient/classical wonders:

Great Lighthouse
Stonehenge
Oracle
Great Library
Parthenon
Temple of Artemis
Hanging Gardens
Petra
Pyramids
Mausoleum of Halicarnassus
Terracotta Army
Great Wall
Statue of Zeus
Colossus

On a scale where 0 means no shot at it and 10 means you can always succeed on Deity level.

Great Lighthouse 3 on most maps but 0 if on an archipelago / large islands / tiny islands map.
Stonehenge 6
Oracle 7 (if you skipped Stonehenge, but if in that game built it only a 3 since you may still be completing it when you reach this tech in that case)
Great Library 0
Parthenon 1
Temple of Artemis 0 (AI starts with Archery on Deity)
Hanging Gardens 2 (Well off the standard NC path but more variable than most as it depends on how many AIs went Tradition)
Petra 3 (Even more off the standard NC path but the Desert restriction makes it easier)
Pyramids 1 (Aren't you normally busy founding new cities when you open Liberty? Only reason I didn't rate it a 0 is because there's a possibility that none of the AI in that game went Liberty)
Mausoleum of Halicarnassus 0 (AI won't care it doesn't have local stone or marble and will construct it anyway)
Terracotta Army 0 (How can you beat the AI on Deity and possibly already have enough military units to make it worth while at the same time?)
Great Wall 0 (Extremely off the standard NC - University path)
Statue of Zeus 0 (Honor much more popular as an opening tree with the AI than the human)
Colossus 5 on most maps but 0 if on an archipelago / large islands / tiny islands map.

I'm surprised at the ratings for Pyramids, Stonehenge and Colossus. Pyramids is actually one of the only two pre-medieval wonders that I consider reliable to get on Deity (the other being Oracle). Not only is there a policy restriction, but AIs also seem to place a very low priority on building it. It also provides a very good return: two free workers is already 140 hammers, the +1 culture is essentially half a monument or another 20 hammers, which means that you get +25% worker speed for an effective cost of only 25 hammers.
Stonehenge, on the other hand, I almost never build. I remember MadDjinn did a Beyond the Monument video on Stonehenge (back in G&K, but a lot of stuff still applies) and he only got it 1 out of the 3 times he tried. I also think it usually goes around T40-50 (correct me if I'm wrong) so you probably need to do some chopping and have a good hammer start to make it viable.
The Colossus is way, way off the standard NC path. Not counting Mining, it's 2 techs that you wouldn't otherwise take, one of which is as expensive as Philosophy itself. Plus, if you miss it, you've essentially lost everything. I think the only time I would even consider it is if I'm Venice.
I'd probably rate Pyramids a 7, Stonehenge 4, and Colossus 2.

It would just be nice to be able to build Alhambra some day. *sigh*

There are definitely some 0's (GL, ToA, Great Wall, Terracotta, Zeus), but I remember that for most of the early wonders that go at around T50, you can usually get it but delay the NC. I still think the main fact that jon pointed out is valid, with so many of them either way too early on the tech path which the AI has, or far below on the tree so people can't really go there on deity.

I'd switch the rating for GLighthouse and Colossus though, because Ironworking is just as expensive as philosophy and less appealing than optics.

Is temple of Artemis a specific DLC? A friend and I are regularly playing Civ V BNW but never saw this wonder.

Appart from that, I think the opportunity cost of early wonders is way too high on divinity. Even if you COULD get a shot, you have more urgent things to build most of the times.

Alleria said:

Is temple of Artemis a specific DLC? A friend and I are regularly playing Civ V BNW but never saw this wonder.

Appart from that, I think the opportunity cost of early wonders is way too high on divinity. Even if you COULD get a shot, you have more urgent things to build most of the times.

Click to expand...

Temple of Artemis is part of the Wonders DLC. If you don't have Korea either, there is a Wonders + Korea pack. If you get this combo during a 75% sale it's really cheap.

The question is, is this a scale of how viable it is to get the wonders, or how viable it is to get the wonders and still do well afterwards? If the former, a wonder like Colossus might be in the mid-range; if the latter, such wonders would probably not be more than 2.

59saintdane said:

The question is, is this a scale of how viable it is to get the wonders, or how viable it is to get the wonders and still do well afterwards? If the former, a wonder like Colossus might be in the mid-range; if the latter, such wonders would probably not be more than 2.

Click to expand...

Mine considered possibility of getting the wonders if you after getting all luxury techs you went out and also considered what the capital was likely to be building but did not consider weather the wonder would make up for slower NC / Education when that would occur.

Factoring that in, drop Great Lighthouse from 3 to 1 for both being off NC path and the hammer investment while only getting extra sight + extra movement.

Stonehenge & Oracle not affected since they are constructed post NC.

Pantheon gets knocked down to a 0 since its off NC path and only provides 1 Great Work of Art.

Hanging Gardens gets knocked down o a 0 since its off NC path and a much cheaper food cargo ship starts with that same amount of food and only goes up from there.

Petra gets trimmed from 3 to a 2, its also off NC path but in this case can really help the city its built in.

Pyramids not affected.

Colossus gets knocked all the way down to a 2 for being extremely off the tech paths to NC & University and only giving an extra Cargo Ship.

I'd say Temple of Artemis is probably a 5, but your start has to have some hills and one or two forests. Basically you tech Archery and Mining while stealing a worker or two to chop/build mines. The Aristocracy policy in Tradition helps a bit as well. At 3pop you would stop growth. As long as you can build it before ~T35 or so you have a good shot at finishing it before the AI.

If I go for it (have a good production start with 2 forests), I rarely lose it to the AI. Problem is that getting a religion is basically not happening if you go for it.

TigerRageXD said:

I'd say Temple of Artemis is probably a 5, but your start has to have some hills and one or two forests. Basically you tech Archery and Mining while stealing a worker or two to chop/build mines. The Aristocracy policy in Tradition helps a bit as well. At 3pop you would stop growth. As long as you can build it before ~T35 or so you have a good shot at finishing it before the AI.

If I go for it (have a good production start with 2 forests), I rarely lose it to the AI. Problem is that getting a religion is basically not happening if you go for it.

Click to expand...

T35 to 40 is when I see it go on Immortal.
I've seen it go two turns before GL does on Deity.

Great Library 0 It is very hard to get. However if you find the civ that is going to build it and DoW them (maybe harass them) you have a chance.
Parthenon 1 Very hard to get it.

Great Lighthouse ? I never build it.
Stonehenge 4 Not impossible but not easy

Oracle 10 I can build this almost 100% every game.
Temple of Artemis ? I don't build it
Hanging Gardens 6 Depends on the start. I built them many times but sometimes the AI gets hanging gardens really fast.
Petra 4 Luck of the draw. If the AI wants to get it, it will get it.
Pyramids 10 AI never gets them.
Mausoleum of Halicarnassus 8 It is usually buildable I think.
Terracotta Army ? I never build it.
Great Wall ? I never build it.
Statue of Zeus ? I never build it.
Colossus 7 I rarely build it. But it seems that if you get a good start it is buildable.

Wonders that you can almost always build if you beeline:
Oracle
Great Lighthouse
Colossus
Wonders you can sometimes build if you beeline:
Mausoleum
Pyramids
Zeus
Wonders that you can seldom build even if you beeline:
Hanging Gardens
Stonehenge
Petra
Great Wall
Wonders that you are almost never gonna get even if you beeline
Great Library
Temple of Artemis
Terracotta Army
Parthenon

I have built the great library on deity. I has Shoshone, a salt start, marble, a stolen worker, and writing from a ruin, so I thought, why not try? I missed by two turns, reloaded and optimized a bit, and completed it first.

Melchizedek said:

I have built the great library on deity. I has Shoshone, a salt start, marble, a stolen worker, and writing from a ruin, so I thought, why not try? I missed by two turns, reloaded and optimized a bit, and completed it first.

Click to expand...

Yes it can be gotten. But usually it is so hard to get it out. I got it recently as korea when I had some salt nearby. I stole 2 workers and got one out through liberty. Then I had to chop forests outside my city just to get it in time.

Melchizedek said:

I have built the great library on deity. I has Shoshone, a salt start, marble, a stolen worker, and writing from a ruin, so I thought, why not try? I missed by two turns, reloaded and optimized a bit, and completed it first.

Click to expand...

Thing is even if you can get it, it's been pretty well demonstrated that on Diety the GL is actually a hindrance. Truth be told by forgoing some of these early wonders you actually have a better chance at securing and settling the best terrain in your region. And usually you will be able to catch the AI in tech earlier and secure some of the renaissance wonders which arguably are a bigger game change.
An early caravan to a Diety AI will generate about as much science as a GL anyway.

The other risk to Great Library is you risk "You built Wonders they Coveted" - that is the last thing you want to see on a neighbor AI at turn 35.

I think if your going Diety you want 1 wonder that can generate an engineer point so you have a chance at scoring a free Engineer for a mid-game wonder like Leaning Tower. The most reliable is Pyramids, although Artemis is also possible. I would then try to get Oracle

Personally, the Oracle is by far the easiest. It's tight on that NC path, the AI dosent build it. My early wonders tend to be Oracle, Petra(when useful) and Machu Picchu.

Redaxe said:

Thing is even if you can get it, it's been pretty well demonstrated that on Diety the GL is actually a hindrance. Truth be told by forgoing some of these early wonders you actually have a better chance at securing and settling the best terrain in your region. And usually you will be able to catch the AI in tech earlier and secure some of the renaissance wonders which arguably are a bigger game change.
An early caravan to a Diety AI will generate about as much science as a GL anyway.

Click to expand...

This isn't true. If you get the GL then typically you had a good start. After GL you can build the NC right after. It can be a pretty powerful start if you get it.

^^that sounds like something you could do with a one city challenge start strategy.

I still that have that sweet spot for hanging garden even so it s compared to a trade route , well at least it s like one more trade route (yes I m in disbelief about HG I know that ! ) .
But colossus or pyramids are solid wonders even if they are circumstancial. If you go liberty for some reason (going wide or having strong culture boost) pyramids has a nice return on investment since it also means having an engineer popping end medieval/early renaissance for another wonder. Colossus is one more trade route , so it's always great if you have a synergie with trade routes. It can also help an early warmonger but paying gold maintenance while going for swordsmen early.
GL can be a good start but it requieres some enourmous luck , like finding writing in a goodie hut early and going mining early to chop some trees while having stolen a worker somewhere. Still if it happens you are golden since you can almost immediately start NC and steamroll science from there.

The other wonders are too rushed and don't provide a good enough return on investment to justify spending so much turn idle. Oracle can be good tough ,if you go NC fast since it ain't too rushed and can help an already culture boosted civ who opened liberty then went tradition.