Policy impact

Tradition:

The extra policy needed to get the free cultural policy basically means that you are now better off hand building a monument in your capital (right after building the scouts). Otherwise, that is a long time to not have a Monument.

Side effects are:
1. You will now go thru 2 policies that won't benefit you until much later to get to the ones you want right away.
(It won't be until much later that the free unit maintenance for the garrison units will save you a significant amount of cash)

2. The over all time to complete tradition though might actually be slightly faster this way compared to the old skip Monument in the capital and get it for free.

3. You now have several more turns to decide weather to go down Tradition or Liberty due to needing the monument in the capital anyway.

Overall, it's not much of a nerf to full tradition. It is however a nerf to those doing partial tradition tactics (Liberty + center of Tradition, center of Tradition + Honor, center of Tradition + Piety)

It would actually have been more of a nerf to full tradition if they had borrowed the community mod idea that requires Engineering to get those free aqueducts.

Piety:

This has added getting a Reformation belief as a possible filler after completing the first tree while waiting to be allowed into Rationalism in some games.
Still it will depend on how many AIs opened Piety as the first tree, I'm thinking its highly likely the AI will have taken Jesuit Priests which is the main one a Tradition player would want.

Those that went Liberty though might want to check if To the Glory of God is still available as this would give them the ability to faith rush GEs.

Those that built two sets of faith religious buildings might also want to check if Sacred Sites is still available.

The boost though is very marginal to those going full Piety for most of them due to timing of when the benefits of reformation actually kick in. (Sacred Sites is the main one that will benefit from being able to select it early)

joncnunn said:

The extra policy needed to get the free cultural policy basically means that you are now better off hand building a monument in your capital (right after building the scouts). Otherwise, that is a long time to not have a Monument.

Click to expand...

Monument start is now the way to go(before first scout actually). Players who don't care to reroll until they get a fast culture ruin can stick with 2-3 scouts start. The magic will operate in any cases

joncnunn said:

It would actually have been more of a nerf to full tradition if they had borrowed the community mod idea that requires Engineering to get those free aqueducts.

Click to expand...

Agree. In fact, i would have done both. The actual changes but ALSO the engineering requirement.

joncnunn said:

The boost though is very marginal to those going full Piety for most of them due to timing of when the benefits of reformation actually kick in. (Sacred Sites is the main one that will benefit from being able to select it early)

Click to expand...

Well at least the Oracle wonder will not be necessarily needed which makes things a bit easier, at least for mp game(for those who want real trouble )

joncnunn said:

The extra policy needed to get the free cultural policy basically means that you are now better off hand building a monument in your capital (right after building the scouts). Otherwise, that is a long time to not have a Monument.

Click to expand...

I am not a top tier player by any means, but I have been trying to go wide, opening Liberty whenever I can. So my default build order for my last several many games has been: Scout, Scout, Monument, Shrine.

The over all time to complete tradition though might actually be slightly faster this way compared to the old skip Monument in the capital and get it for free.

Click to expand...

Having a strong prejudice for Liberty, but being mediocre, results with me opening Tradition in half my games anyway. So I have gotten in the habit of waiting on Legalism until after the monument in capital is complete. I would agree that this does not really seem to end up delaying the completion of Tradition. The free amphitheater feels very strong.

You now have several more turns to decide weather to go down Tradition or Liberty due to needing the monument in the capital anyway.

Click to expand...

I don't quite follow this assertion. I always open scout, scout -- but more often than not I feel like I have to make the choice between opening Tradition or Liberty on too little information. It seems to me that the most common scenario is to get the opener and next SP too while working on that first building (3rd item in queue).

Overall, it's not much of a nerf to full tradition.

Click to expand...

Agreed.

I'm thinking its highly likely the AI will have taken Jesuit Priests which is the main one a Tradition player would want.

Click to expand...

Good observation! That could be a frustrating side-effect.

Does the tweak to Piety make it more attractive to open (for the half price shrines) before Tradition or Liberty?

I realize that this didn't change, but the default optimal build order for both now being scout, scout, monument (instead of Tradition's scout, scout, shrine) make me think this could be debated. Also, it would give a player 10+ more turns to make the pivotal choice between Tradition and Liberty.

beetle said:

Does the tweak to Piety make it more attractive to open (for the half price shrines) before Tradition or Liberty?

Click to expand...

Piety opener first followed by full Tradition was never popular. If anything, the Tradition policy change will make it less so.

On the Liberty side, I can't see this making Piety opener first (with or without reformation) followed by Liberty more popular.

However, there is a chance it may make start with Liberty (side with free settler), then reformation, followed by completing Liberty more popular.
Several of the reformation beliefs are better with a wide empire and/or Liberty:

1. Glory of God gives Liberty players access to GEs (which Tradition players already have)

2. Sacred Sites works better for more cities.

3. Jesuit Priests works even better for wide empires than it does tall ones by reducing the delay getting the latest science buildings to all cities.

Tabarnak said:

Monument start is now the way to go(before first scout actually). Players who don't care to reroll until they get a fast culture ruin can stick with 2-3 scouts start. The magic will operate in any cases

Click to expand...

Wow...really? Again I play almost exclusively on Pangaea at Immortal for SP. I can get away with monument first and then build my scouts? You might hit a culture ruin etc. You might find two religious CS, meeting CS first is 30 gold rather than 15. Have you tested this extensively on a standard 8/16 Pangaea-type map? Now if you're Ethiopia, then I can now understand Stele first. But aren't you missing out on a couple of ruins without a scout or 2 first?

Tabarnak said:

Agree (re Tradition's ducts). In fact, i would have done both. The actual changes but ALSO the engineering requirement.

Click to expand...

While the patch really nerfs Tradition by slowing down early culture or forcing a very early monument, I agree with you.

I'd have given Liberty a slight buff by changing the early policy that gives +1 prod and +5% for buildings to +1 and 10%.

Regarding Piety, I think it could still use some buff. Perhaps have the opener also provide a free shrine in the capitol in addition to half price shrines and temples. Or maybe have the opener provide 1 culture per shrine as well as half priced.

Also a couple new decent reformation beliefs would have helped.

Just my opinions .. neilkaz ..

The earlier Reformation screams "Heathen conversion". That's a 25-turn earlier Heathen conversion, which means you can realistically get it early Medieval, at a time when barbs are still around and missionaries are cheap and can still actually convert stuff. For that matter, the odds of converting captured settlers just went up exponentially (hint: if you heathen convert a settler, it remains a settler, and you are talking Medieval). The ONLY drawback is you will no longer get culture from barb kills, but you'll be getting so many units and influence from CS gifts that you won't care.

Can you imagine Poland using their 2 free policies (at Classical and Medieval) to beeline Heathen conversion? !!!!!!!!!!!!!

neilkaz said:

Regarding Piety, I think it could still use some buff. Perhaps have the opener also provide a free shrine in the capitol in addition to half price shrines and temples. Or maybe have the opener provide 1 culture per shrine as well as half priced.

Click to expand...

The Policy Tweaks mod adds (among other things) +1 faith for the palace to the Piety opener, and +4 global happiness to Religious Tolerance. (Currently, the mod needs an update to reflect the changed prerequisites within the Piety tree.)

lockstep said:

The Policy Tweaks mod adds (among other things) +1 faith for the palace to the Piety opener, and +4 global happiness to Religious Tolerance. (Currently, the mod needs an update to reflect the changed prerequisites within the Piety tree.)

Click to expand...

Lots of mods need updated due to the patch, but it's best to contact the mod authors directly.

The first 4 social policy trees are meant to be played differently. Therefore I don't like how the community wants "culture everywhere". Each tree has its unique characteristics and trade offs.

neilkaz said:

But aren't you missing out on a couple of ruins without a scout or 2 first?

Click to expand...

I prefer ensure a decent Landed Elite+Monarchy strike than a ruins monopoly...at worse you will miss a ruin or 2. Scout first then monument can be ok but you will almost automatically delay by 6-7 turns(standard) Landed Elite...and 5-6 turns of Landed Elite equals more or less a free .

There is also the free monument timing for your 2nd city. Faster you will get Legalism faster the free monument will have an impact on your progression through the tree, not mentionning the cultural borders expansion which is very important to get early on.

joncnunn said:

Lots of mods need updated due to the patch, but it's best to contact the mod authors directly.

Click to expand...

I have already added a comment on Steam. My above remark was only meant for other players interested in the mod.

Vitruvius said:

The first 4 social policy trees are meant to be played differently. Therefore I don't like how the community wants "culture everywhere". Each tree has its unique characteristics and trade offs.

Click to expand...

Different isn't the problem. The main problem with Piety and Honor is that as a first tree neither is anywhere close to as good as Tradition (going tall) or Liberty (going wide) as a first tree is. (Piety & Honor work better as a second tree roughly along the lines of Patronage, Aesthetics, Commerce, and Exploration in the most favorable circumstances for that tree)

I find the tradition nerf so severe that I'll probably start with Liberty and the free worker most of the time. Such a start is ahead of anything else you can think of. After the first two policies I can decide reliably whether I want a reformation belief, a great general, many settlers or the patronage city state boosts.

I really think that engineers should be faith bought with liberty instead of tradition. I think that would make a whole lot more sense. Liberty has a bad opener and a bad finisher while tradition has strong.

I also think piety could have free shrines in first 4 and that the discount for trainging-buildings should come way earlier in honor!

joncnunn said:

Piety opener first followed by full Tradition was never popular. If anything, the Tradition policy change will make it less so.

On the Liberty side, I can't see this making Piety opener first (with or without reformation) followed by Liberty more popular.

However, there is a chance it may make start with Liberty (side with free settler), then reformation, followed by completing Liberty more popular.
Several of the reformation beliefs are better with a wide empire and/or Liberty:

1. Glory of God gives Liberty players access to GEs (which Tradition players already have)

2. Sacred Sites works better for more cities.

3. Jesuit Priests works even better for wide empires than it does tall ones by reducing the delay getting the latest science buildings to all cities.

Click to expand...

I think your overall analysis is pretty spot-on here, particularly given the fact that Tradition has a finisher that is better the sooner you get it, while Liberty finisher will often be a matter of appropriate timing and can even be postponed (for instance to grab an engineer to snatch a key wonder).

I would like to add that the Liberty/Piety pairing probably is better on paper than in reality, however. Jesuit Education and Sacred Sites are all but always #1 and #2 picks for AI, and since a number of AIs will always plummet head-first into Piety, these beliefs will be gone before you ever get to Reformation (if you start with Liberty, and possibly also if you start with Piety straight unless you are lucky with ruins). To The Glory Of God is a viable option, however, since AI never takes this belief, but since this effect only kicks in in Industrial era and later, it goes to perfectly show why moving Reformation up earlier in the tree is a bad idea.

Gigaz said:

I find the tradition nerf so severe that I'll probably start with Liberty and the free worker most of the time. Such a start is ahead of anything else you can think of. After the first two policies I can decide reliably whether I want a reformation belief, a great general, many settlers or the patronage city state boosts.

Click to expand...

Why? It's really minor for Full Tradition, you only delayed the most important sub policies by one and complete it at the same time. You can even make up the turn count if you now hand build a monument in the capital (getting free Amphitheater there with discovery of Drama.)

Now if you were only taking the center part of Tradition and then doing something else instead of completing, yes, that's where the nerf impacted.

Gustavus Rex said:

I really think that engineers should be faith bought with liberty instead of tradition. I think that would make a whole lot more sense. Liberty has a bad opener and a bad finisher while tradition has strong.

I also think piety could have free shrines in first 4 and that the discount for trainging-buildings should come way earlier in honor!

Click to expand...

That would make Liberty super overpowered (unless you are intending to move the Liberty's free Great Person to Tradition at the same time?)

The Piety idea would help narrow the gap somewhat since in addition to the hammers saved from Shrines that's also a 1 GPT saved per city.
If you want to balance it with Tradition & Liberty, you are probably better off nerfing both Tradition & Liberty than boosting Piety though.

kaspergm said:

I think your overall analysis is pretty spot-on here, particularly given the fact that Tradition has a finisher that is better the sooner you get it, while Liberty finisher will often be a matter of appropriate timing and can even be postponed (for instance to grab an engineer to snatch a key wonder).

I would like to add that the Liberty/Piety pairing probably is better on paper than in reality, however. Jesuit Education and Sacred Sites are all but always #1 and #2 picks for AI, and since a number of AIs will always plummet head-first into Piety, these beliefs will be gone before you ever get to Reformation (if you start with Liberty, and possibly also if you start with Piety straight unless you are lucky with ruins). To The Glory Of God is a viable option, however, since AI never takes this belief, but since this effect only kicks in in Industrial era and later, it goes to perfectly show why moving Reformation up earlier in the tree is a bad idea.

Click to expand...

Yes, I'd agree that those two will probably be gone if you wait. It's probably more a help for the AI since Reformation is still rather far down to use a filer while waiting to be allowed into Rationalism even if you build Oracle.

joncnunn said:

Why? It's really minor for Full Tradition, you only delayed the most important sub policies by one and complete it at the same time. You can even make up the turn count if you now hand build a monument in the capital (getting free Amphitheater there with discovery of Drama.)

Click to expand...

Yes but then your forth policy is the first one to offer a significant bonus. With these four policies I could have also gone for the free worker and the general or the super faith to send my empire on a trajectoy which can probably surpass these free aqueducts from the full tradition.
Before the patch, the strength of tradition was the capital growth and the early gold and happiness from this capital which would then promote early economy and military a lot. With these things delayed, everything else is delayed, too.

Gigaz said:

...to send my empire on a trajectoy which can probably surpass these free aqueducts from the full tradition.

Click to expand...

I don't see it. With full-Tradition-first the aqueducts come super early, before Engineering, and when the hammers would be very hard to spare. Those early aqueducts really snowball for the rest of the game. The 10/27 nerf does not delay the finisher.

You have just helped me disabuse myself the notion that maybe I might now open Piety before filling out Tradition!

Another thought: since Reformation times at about the same time you could get the free settler from liberty, you could pick Heathen conversion and probably pick up a free settler that way anyway.

The problem with honor is that it is so 'Active'. Having the army early on means you can go around completing city state quests or bulling them to gain early gold and happiness and other city state bonuses. You can rack up lots of culture from barbarian killing and gold from the finisher. Military caste gives you +1 happiness and +2 culture per city if you put your garrisons in them which is +1 culture per city compared to liberty. The problem is all these bonuses require you to do more than just select the policy and build some buildings which makes them much harder to quantify, and much more likely to be variable in how they go game to game.

Having a good religion is in itself basically having another social policy tree. So piety's bonus is having a strong religion which is in itself a fully customizable social policy tree. The problem with it is you are forced to pick culture for one of your religious beliefs just to make up with the fact the tree doesn't have any. So yes your religion is stronger but it seems you are less flexible with how you build it. I imagine the reason that they don't add a culture bonus is in case you then also focus your religion around culture and double up the bonuses. I haven't fully tested it but i imagine Theocracy is pretty powerful with its 25% gold bonus for temples.