Players Guide to the C2C Combat Mod - Size Matters game option.

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Currently ambushers can combine and then be promoted to rogues so you can get boosted rogues (and later assassins) that way. I havent checked to see if you can then split the rogues to get more then the normal limit of 2.

Interesting... maybe I'll have to make Strike Teams unable to split/merge as well for this reason. Too bad. But it does make sense. Strike Teams are very specific forces in terms of the size and their effectiveness as a strike team is predicated on the team size they represent so yeah... they shouldn't be able to split/merge.
 
I just split my one tamed donkey and was able to build 3 building with them.

Also, you get $$ when you disband a unit and you get the same no mater what size the unit is, so if you split first you get 3x the cash.

Currently you can split a unit with no moves left and when you do the three smaller units have full moves, they can then combine back, move again, split again, ad infinitum.
 
I just split my one tamed donkey and was able to build 3 building with them.
Ack... I'll have to look at the CCs for that unit - I think they are a combatant rather than a Subdued so that does become an issue... I wanted animals to be able to split for ai purposes later but this may mean I need a new CC for Trained animals so I can isolate those into an unsplittable category.

Also, you get $$ when you disband a unit and you get the same no mater what size the unit is, so if you split first you get 3x the cash.
Thanks for the tip... that's certainly something to modify the results on based on group volume!

Currently you can split a unit with no moves left and when you do the three smaller units have full moves, they can then combine back, move again, split again, ad infinitum.
I noticed a bug on this in my playtesting... units that have moved at all should not be able to merge or split and for some reason it's allowing it on both ends. Not right. Will fix!
 
Subdued are already set not to be able to split or merge but I forgot about TRAINED animals and I'll have to fix that. They aren't given the subdued CC but are currently combatants. Will have to make them Trained rather than combatants I think.
 
One question I had, after combining a few troops, it seems they dont heal at all without medics. I thought they would just heal at a very slow pace. Was that intended?

All units heal when stationary, ie don't move, attack or be attacked. The amount of healing they get depends on where they are. The more hostile the territory the longer it takes to heal. It takes about twice as long to heal in enemy territory as it does in neutral territory. Healing in friendly territory is even faster.
 
But then it doesn't make sense at all that they can build the "herd" building.

I don't agree. The herd building of course doesn't have any combat strength, so the reasoning would go that they do represent multiple animals (i.e at least a breeding pair), but would cease to function as units if split, and thus you can't split them.
 
Don't get me wrong! I also don't want subdued units to be able to split thus creating more herds with one unit - but as TB said, they should not have SINGLE Size. While it would be an easy solution to not split them further, it seems wrong from a realistic point of view.
 
Subdued already can't split and as far as their group volume settings, some do take it down to 'single' when subdued but not all. I did try to rationalize how it would work for the buildings like herds and how many could be likely captured among a group of wild animals of that type when encountered.
 
Don't get me wrong! I also don't want subdued units to be able to split thus creating more herds with one unit - but as TB said, they should not have SINGLE Size. While it would be an easy solution to not split them further, it seems wrong from a realistic point of view.

There can't be a size for every number. Sizes are 'orders of magnitude'. Two is the same order of magnitude as one, so it is the same size ie. 'single'.
 
Is there any advantage to giving workers the promotion that raises their combat quality? It doesnt seem like it, is it just an error that they can get it?
 
Is there any advantage to giving workers the promotion that raises their combat quality? It doesnt seem like it, is it just an error that they can get it?

No... It's an oversight. I have it on my debug list here to restrict quality upgrades from 0 power units.
 
There can't be a size for every number. Sizes are 'orders of magnitude'. Two is the same order of magnitude as one, so it is the same size ie. 'single'.

Not according to the creator of this Mod :mischief:

Group Volume
Solo (1) - 1
Party (2-6) - 2
Squad (7-20) - 3
Company (21-100) - 4
Battalion (101-600) - 5
Forces (601-2500) - 6
Clan (2600-10000) - 7
Horde (10001-100000) - 8
Multitudes (100k - 1 million) - 9
Millions - 10
Billions - 11
Trillions - 12
Countless - 13

Single (ok, it was Solo) is only 1 unit. If there are at least 2, you are already a Party.
 
No... It's an oversight. I have it on my debug list here to restrict quality upgrades from 0 power units.

Hey Thunderbrd, any chance you have time for a quick run-down on what has/hasn't been fixed? I'm going to be starting a new game soon as I was defeated in my last one... but I would love to be able to turn this option on. From skimming the thread, it sounds like most of the remaining issues are easy to work around or to ignore, but it'd be nice to have a short list to refer to :)
 
I'll be glad to go over that tonight. One major thing I worked on that took a lot of the time over the weekend was arranging a mechanism for loading and unloading units that takes size and group volume into consideration.

EDIT: I'll cover this tomorrow... may be able to commit my fixes by then too. If not tomorrow then probably Wed.
 
A somewhat cool feature would be to give small groups (Solo/Party) the ability to enter borders without right of passage the same way explorers and kayaks can. This would represent a weak invasion army and would mostly be used for reconnaissance and as an ineffective way of getting an army through a foreign border.

Additionally, there could be a small percentage for the units to be kicked outside the border every turn for trespassing without consent, plus some other penalty for getting caught (relation penalty?).
Alternatively they could be turned into hidden units that get kicked out if seen by a unit that can see camouflaged units like trained dogs but not rouges and ambushers (they would rather kill their prey).
They should also not get kicked outside borders if war erupts as they are there without the enemies knowledge.

My suggestion for group volume names (isn't 10 enough, there's really no need for a number of how many there are in each volume)
1 - Few . . . . . . | Solo - 1
2 - Several . . . . | Team - 2
3 - Pack . . . . . . | Squad - 3
4 - Lots . . . . . . . | platoon - 4
5 - Crowd . . . . . . | Company - 5
6 - Horde . . . . . . . | Battalion - 6
7 - Throng . . . . . . . | Brigade - 7
8 - Swarm . . . . . . . . | Division - 8
9 - Multitude . . . . . . .| Corps/Army - 9
10 - Legions . . . . . . . . | Legions/Theater - 10

Column 1 is for those inclined to ambiguous magnitude words and the second column for those who like army expressions. Hope it helps in some ways TB.


Found a bug: If you perform a merge while having all three units selected as a group you can effectively duplicate units. I made 3 squads turn into 9 squads in as little as 5 minutes doing this (took me some time to figure out what made it happen).

There is a trick to it though, First off you must select them all, lets call them unit 1,2 and 3. Then you initiate the merge and when prompted about who to merge unit 1 with (it chooses the one with it's picture furthest to the left over the unit action panel as the one to merge with first), the first choice doesn't matter but on the second one you can choose to merge him with himself (unit 1 merges with [2 || 3] && 1). After that, the third unit that never got involved in the merge, prompts you who to merge him with but as there is only one choice (the result from the last merge) the process cancels after the first choice. The third unit and the merge of the two other units stands there in the stack that used to be three units big.

This happened to me the first time I tried the merging function so I would say it's a critical bug.

The size up and down promotion need some mainstreaming, they should be called "Size Up I, II .. etc." and "Size Down I, II .. etc." This way the hover over panel can tell you that they give/take 20%/40%/60% strength and the same for the other modifiers. I realize this might not be easy as they also have to contain combat class tag removal/adding, but could the combat tag be handled outside the promotion in any way. A tag iteration script that is called when the unit gets the promotion that make the correct tag modification based on what tag the unit had.

I don't like that smaller groups heal faster, this somewhat destroys the purpose of terrain damage as you can explore the poles and deserts with any units without the terrain promotions, it removes natural barriers and the usefulness of said promotions.
 
A somewhat cool feature would be to give small groups (Solo/Party) the ability to enter borders without right of passage the same way explorers and kayaks can. This would represent a weak invasion army and would mostly be used for reconnaissance and as an ineffective way of getting an army through a foreign border.
I can see one way to achieve this. We'd need a 'smuggler' unit that can load land units that have very small cargo volumes. The smuggler himself would be a hidden nationality unit. The only problem with this is the same problem I was presented when I suggested rogues be able to develop this type of ability so they could sneak out captives - the AI would be horrifyingly complex to develop for it. So perhaps eventually I can address this but it won't be soon.

Additionally, there could be a small percentage for the units to be kicked outside the border every turn for trespassing without consent, plus some other penalty for getting caught (relation penalty?).
Alternatively they could be turned into hidden units that get kicked out if seen by a unit that can see camouflaged units like trained dogs but not rouges and ambushers (they would rather kill their prey).
They should also not get kicked outside borders if war erupts as they are there without the enemies knowledge.
These are similar functions to what I'm going to need to develop for Law Enforcement vs Criminals (hiding in the city). It's not terribly difficult but it would be a very exact type of rule set that may not be more generically useful in the game so it's going to take a bit of a low priority for now. At the moment, similar things apply to spies and I'll leave it to them for the time being. After the combat mod main body is complete I had some plans to deepen espionage issues and maybe some of these ideas could be implemented there.

My suggestion for group volume names (isn't 10 enough, there's really no need for a number of how many there are in each volume)
1 - Few . . . . . . | Solo - 1
2 - Several . . . . | Team - 2
3 - Pack . . . . . . | Squad - 3
4 - Lots . . . . . . . | platoon - 4
5 - Crowd . . . . . . | Company - 5
6 - Horde . . . . . . . | Battalion - 6
7 - Throng . . . . . . . | Brigade - 7
8 - Swarm . . . . . . . . | Division - 8
9 - Multitude . . . . . . .| Corps/Army - 9
10 - Legions . . . . . . . . | Legions/Theater - 10

Column 1 is for those inclined to ambiguous magnitude words and the second column for those who like army expressions. Hope it helps in some ways TB.
I decided on names quickly but if the rest of the team agrees they need to be adjusted I'm not fixed on anything in particular. I wanted to give the numbers so that we had a clear concept of what was being represented even if it was somewhat fuzzy.


Found a bug: If you perform a merge while having all three units selected as a group you can effectively duplicate units. I made 3 squads turn into 9 squads in as little as 5 minutes doing this (took me some time to figure out what made it happen).

There is a trick to it though, First off you must select them all, lets call them unit 1,2 and 3. Then you initiate the merge and when prompted about who to merge unit 1 with (it chooses the one with it's picture furthest to the left over the unit action panel as the one to merge with first), the first choice doesn't matter but on the second one you can choose to merge him with himself (unit 1 merges with [2 || 3] && 1). After that, the third unit that never got involved in the merge, prompts you who to merge him with but as there is only one choice (the result from the last merge) the process cancels after the first choice. The third unit and the merge of the two other units stands there in the stack that used to be three units big.

This happened to me the first time I tried the merging function so I would say it's a critical bug.
The thought occurred to me that there could be some funny processing if a group of units was sent to merge at once. I'm not sure how to stop this from being possible... I'll have to ask AIAndy or Koshling on that one I think... or really search the code to see how that can be impaired from being done.

The size up and down promotion need some mainstreaming, they should be called "Size Up I, II .. etc." and "Size Down I, II .. etc." This way the hover over panel can tell you that they give/take 20%/40%/60% strength and the same for the other modifiers. I realize this might not be easy as they also have to contain combat class tag removal/adding, but could the combat tag be handled outside the promotion in any way. A tag iteration script that is called when the unit gets the promotion that make the correct tag modification based on what tag the unit had.
This is not so simple as it may seem. Trust me... I agree this would be nicer but would be hellishly complex to achieve. It's already complex enough that trying to explain how it currently works is enough to split my skull. Taking it to this next level would finish the job and I'd be in the mental hospital. In a sense, they already are 'mainstreamed' as the suggestion you have has some hard to rationalize logical problems. The basis of this added complexity stems from needing to maintain continuity when units change type and the fact that the size is not derived from a tracked level on the unit itself (though that too IS tracked for some purposes and checks) but rather comes from a mechanism that replaces the unitcombat. The size is subservient to the unitcombat, not the unitcombat subservient to the size. Wrap your head around that and you may see why you can't just have Size Up I, II, III. Additionally, there's good reason to make the size subservient to the unitcombat rather than the other way around. Anyhow... this is the long answer way to say...

Sorry man... it'd take an entire restructuring of the logic from the ground up to achieve what you've suggested there and would entail other very deep consequences even if it was completely restructured so that it could work this way.

I don't like that smaller groups heal faster, this somewhat destroys the purpose of terrain damage as you can explore the poles and deserts with any units without the terrain promotions, it removes natural barriers and the usefulness of said promotions.
hmm... interesting. You do realize units don't heal if they have moved in a round right? (It DOES still work this way doesn't it?) So they still have to stop moving and heal before they die. However, the percentage of damage on those SHOULD probably be adjusted by size factor. Still, if your units are so split up you can heal faster than the damage then surely they're in grave danger of other polar threats aren't they?

I also think that the damage should increase with greater intensity zones like 15% in tundra, 20% in permafrost and 25% in ice etc... That could balance that factor out a bit more for those who do use terrain damage.
 
For the healing, we have several buildings with an "Heals X units to full health per turn" ability. This will kinda screw up penalties from large groups when they are the only damaged unit in your city.
 
I can see one way to achieve this. We'd need a 'smuggler' unit that can load land units that have very small cargo volumes.
So it cant be a modifier assigned to the subClass Group(party)?

The thought occurred to me that there could be some funny processing if a group of units was sent to merge at once. I'm not sure how to stop this from being possible... I'll have to ask AIAndy or Koshling on that one I think... or really search the code to see how that can be impaired from being done.
Seems to me that it handles it as three merges at the same time. It first ask who to merge with unit 1 then who to merge with unit 2 then who to merge with unit 3; never really getting to the second unit to merge in any of the merges.
Hope you get what I mean.

Sorry man... it'd take an entire restructuring of the logic from the ground up to achieve what you've suggested there and would entail other very deep consequences even if it was completely restructured so that it could work this way.
Yeah, shows what I know, was just a naive attempt at giving you a fresh perspective, it was sadly too fresh.

hmm... interesting. You do realize units don't heal if they have moved in a round right? (It DOES still work this way doesn't it?) So they still have to stop moving and heal before they die. However, the percentage of damage on those SHOULD probably be adjusted by size factor. Still, if your units are so split up you can heal faster than the damage then surely they're in grave danger of other polar threats aren't they?
A newly built scout (party size) can still move 6 rounds before they have to stop for one round to be fully healed. Animals now generally needs a strength buff, now that they are so weak due to size penalty. A newly built wanderer (solo size) actually have a pretty high survival rate and even more so on the terrain of discussion. Wanderers are weak (overall stronger with size matters) but since there are very few animals on the poles and deserts in the early games (low spawn rates there) and mostly harmless ones at that, they can easily fully explore a large landmass (20 cities without overlap) pole without dying.

If it's not possible to completely remove healing capability on terrain with damage penalty then the highest heal rate buff from size should perhaps be 20%.
Or, as you said, terrain damage should depend upon unit group size.

I also think that the damage should increase with greater intensity zones like 15% in tundra, 20% in permafrost and 25% in ice etc... That could balance that factor out a bit more for those who do use terrain damage.
I have always thought the same although more extreme 20/30/40%.

You are doing a great job btw and it should not come as a surprise to anyone that a modmod as complicated as this requires a lot of balancing.
 
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