Players Guide to the C2C Combat Mod - Size Matters game option.

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I'm mostly impressed with TB's combat mod, even though I'm a conservative that have been with civ. since it's day on DOS; to me Civ 3 is a better game than civ 5 (anecdote).
I think your additions will really grow on most players when it gets closer to completion and more balanced.

I do agree with DH that the withdrawal stuff should not be as pronounced as it is without the "Fight & Flight" module as it does not work well on gamespeeds faster than the slowest two (unless something else changes).

Experience from yesterday: On eternity speed I got most of the myths and herds the large continent had to offer before inventing "Hunting Tactics"; seems reasonable to me, but if I'd been playing on marathon I would most likely have only subdued 3-8 animals before "Sedentary Lifestyle" (this is of course with "Fight & Flight" module).

I don't really have a point in this post, just felt TB needed to be cheered up some. Keep up the good work, what is a mod without radical ideas, what is a radical idea without controversy.
 
Thanks for the support and encouragement. I also can't really say as I blame anyone for having their preferences. I think if we all listed out the options we prefer hardly any of our personal preferences would match up perfectly anyhow. One of the best things about this mod is how many different styles of game you can choose to play so I shouldn't take it personal when some don't care for what I've added - hell if everyone loved everything I did we'd have no need for options right? lol
 
Question for all who've given this option a try:

My wife finds units that start with a decimal value for overall strength is 'annoying' (from an OCD standpoint mainly as she explains it.)

My personal OCD standpoint is that it's annoying to not have your initial military units starting with a base 1 strength (1 is such a baseline number!)

Anyhow, from her comments, the easiest thing I could do that might make this more or less attractive to other players would be to divide the power display by 10 rather than 100 - so your first recon and hunters start with 8 str rather than .8 and your first combatants are starting with 10 rather than 1.

Do the decimals bother others? I saw a comment from Joe where he seemed to be holding his tongue about this, simply saying, "how can a unit start with less than 1 strength?" Was this the sentiment being expressed that a .8 max str unit is somehow terribly frustrating?

I'm willing to make this change for her and for others who feel the same way but I wonder if there's other players that would greatly disagree considering how far away the numbers are going to be expressed from the non-option side of the game that way.
 
For me, there would be two reasons against this:

a) As you said, the optional and the regular values would be very far apart which can be irritating.

b) It would bother me more if units starts with Str 8 and you don't have a strenght 1 unit at all :crazyeye:
 
Perhaps the best solution, since its only a display issue anyhow, would be to work up a BUG display option that enables the local systems to show whatever decimal adjustments the player prefers to see them at.

Only problem is... I haven't the slightest clue how to setup a bug option yet... so it'd be a little research to make it happen.
 
Str 1 Pidgeon should never kill a str 1 Stone thrower or Wanderer.

Didn't we have this discussion before?

JosEPh
 
Str 1 Pidgeon should never kill a str 1 Stone thrower or Wanderer.

Didn't we have this discussion before?

JosEPh

That's one of the whole reasons for this game option. Pigeons tend to be reduced by their combat quality rating, size, and group volume so drastically that they end up being something under .1 as a base. Since the Stone Thrower (base 1) and Wanderer (base .8 but with a good bit of anti-animal modifier) a Pigeon is little more than a bit of bird meat.

Eventually I want to make workers and settlers have str too but there's a lot of AI issues to address before I can manage that. This will make them 'fit' into this system much better so that even a worker with a shovel can rationally take down a rabid pigeon.

Additionally, and this is one of the next steps, some further Animal AI developments should make it possible to make animals act much more like they should. This may also come along with making some units completely incapable of attacking and if they can't they should be able to move on and through what could be hostile units. Those units could certainly attack but they wouldn't BE attacked if the animal decides to wander into their space. This will be a major step towards allowing some animals to spawn and wander about in owned territory without causing trouble so that they may still be hunted much further into the game. Few actually hostile animals would be enabled to move through civilized lands still - but non-hostile animals may well decide to.

I know at my Mom's home in the woods she gets deer wandering through all day. Some animals are willing to co-exist with humans yet may still be hunted.
 
There is a less than 5% chance that it will.

:lol: Tell that to my Dead stone thrower and Wanderer then.

Um, sorry guys but that pidgeon that pooped on you was a special 5% that had ingested toxic waste. So when it "bombed" you, well sorry about that. Hopefully your grave won't glow at night. :p

JosEPh:mischief:
 
:lol: Tell that to my Dead stone thrower and Wanderer then.

Um, sorry guys but that pidgeon that pooped on you was a special 5% that had ingested toxic waste. So when it "bombed" you, well sorry about that. Hopefully your grave won't glow at night. :p

JosEPh:mischief:

It was a super pigeon from hell, they turn up now and then like a eerie reminder of battleship- and armour destroying phalanxes of Civ I.

All you can do is console the spirits of your lost brave warriors. Sorry guys, quirks of the code yknow, solidarity and all that in thy demise against a little bird and if you guys really lost to a pigeon, maybe you really really wanted to die anyway. :)
 
I know I did not post for a long time but this thread intrigues me.

Right now there everybody seems to look for possible exploits of the feature but there may also be chances, which I'd like to point out. I don't know if they are (easily) implementable, but these are my ideas:

- Force Splitting:
One thing which was always unrealistic was units who heal back to full health. I make an example to make my point more clear: Say you nearly wipe out a batallion (500 men) of riflemen (reduce its health to 10%). This rarely means that everybody is badly wounded and if you wait long enough, you get back 500 men fighters again. In real life this will mean that there are 25 standing men plus 25 wounded. You cannot just wait and recover to 500 men. The Size Matters Option could handle that. I propose that if the health falls below 30% there is a chance that its volume is reduced by one; health is multiplied by 3 the same time. The chance could increase when health drops more. Maybe it is 100% if the health falls below 15%. Multiple reductions in the same turn should also be possible.

- Merging:
I suggest that promotions can be kept, with a certain chance if three groups merge. Say one unit has a promotion and the other two units dont. The promotion should be kept by a random chance of 33%.

- Siege: There was the point that one person should not be able to block a whole tile. I see two solutions:
1. maybe it is not possible to block a tile if your GS * GV is below a certain number. Maybe 20 is a good number.
2. or with finer granularity: Maybe a sieging unit can only block some resources, but not all. Maybe you can only block GS*GV/5 resources. (i.e. a "party - volume 2" of "humans - size 5" could steal 2*5/5 = 2 food or trade or shields). Details of what is taken first are a matter of discussion.

- Thieves etc. I propose that certain missions can only be effectively done in a group, say espionage. Either the cost is reduced if the group is bigger or certain missions are possible only in a group. On the other hand a group can be more easily detected, which may affect visibility or the risk of a mission. This way merging and splitting could make some sense for espionage units. Finer granularity on counterespionage may work here as well.

- About the Pigeon: maybe some animals should not be allowed to attack ("can only defend"). Just like scout units.

Just my 0.02$ ...
 
This feature seems interesting. I wonder what does grouping do to ranged attack power. Does it increase like strength or stay the same ?

Although it feels weird that combining three units that each have three strength creates one unit with a strength of only 3,6.
 
I know I did not post for a long time but this thread intrigues me.

Right now there everybody seems to look for possible exploits of the feature but there may also be chances, which I'd like to point out. I don't know if they are (easily) implementable, but these are my ideas:

- Force Splitting:
One thing which was always unrealistic was units who heal back to full health. I make an example to make my point more clear: Say you nearly wipe out a batallion (500 men) of riflemen (reduce its health to 10%). This rarely means that everybody is badly wounded and if you wait long enough, you get back 500 men fighters again. In real life this will mean that there are 25 standing men plus 25 wounded. You cannot just wait and recover to 500 men. The Size Matters Option could handle that. I propose that if the health falls below 30% there is a chance that its volume is reduced by one; health is multiplied by 3 the same time. The chance could increase when health drops more. Maybe it is 100% if the health falls below 15%. Multiple reductions in the same turn should also be possible.
I've considered this, yes... perhaps at some point I may work on something along these lines. Depends on how well accepted this option becomes in general first. It'd certainly reduce the value of having larger groups though, which right now is one way to keep yourself to potentially lower casualties (though at great risk of a large chunk of casualties taken all at once.)

- Merging:
I suggest that promotions can be kept, with a certain chance if three groups merge. Say one unit has a promotion and the other two units dont. The promotion should be kept by a random chance of 33%.
It can already be kept if you make that the primary unit that starts the merging mission. If you're aware of this and still making the suggestion I'll just say I'll take it into consideration for now.

- Siege: There was the point that one person should not be able to block a whole tile. I see two solutions:
1. maybe it is not possible to block a tile if your GS * GV is below a certain number. Maybe 20 is a good number.
2. or with finer granularity: Maybe a sieging unit can only block some resources, but not all. Maybe you can only block GS*GV/5 resources. (i.e. a "party - volume 2" of "humans - size 5" could steal 2*5/5 = 2 food or trade or shields). Details of what is taken first are a matter of discussion.
By sieging do you mean blockading? You make a point except that one pirate ship could certainly block a lot of trade in an area due to fear of him being out there and if he's only one ship he shouldn't be too tough to take care of. I mean, logically you make sense but the difficulty in coding a solution for this would be... ugh. Blockade in and of itself is already an intricate monster.

- Thieves etc. I propose that certain missions can only be effectively done in a group, say espionage. Either the cost is reduced if the group is bigger or certain missions are possible only in a group. On the other hand a group can be more easily detected, which may affect visibility or the risk of a mission. This way merging and splitting could make some sense for espionage units. Finer granularity on counterespionage may work here as well.
Perhaps long down the road I'll return to adjust the way espionage and such works though this isn't the only reason I've restricted Criminal units from being able to split and merge - the other reason is property value changes. If I didn't limit them from being able to split and merge a rogue could go into an enemy city and split himself down to singular individuals and each would have an equal amount of property change modifier - the way property changes are done is too intricate for me to break it down and modify it on the unit like strength and other factors.

- About the Pigeon: maybe some animals should not be allowed to attack ("can only defend"). Just like scout units.

Just my 0.02$ ...
I'm hoping to get to some more intricate animal AI this cycle which would encompass this without setting simple hard limits.

This feature seems interesting. I wonder what does grouping do to ranged attack power. Does it increase like strength or stay the same ?

Although it feels weird that combining three units that each have three strength creates one unit with a strength of only 3,6.
Depends on the ranged attack power. Many units with bombard ability cannot split or merge because it doesn't interact well with the bombardment. I THINK that archery bombardment does base on the strength comparison between units though so it should modify that appropriately for archers.

It does feel a bit weird the way it calculates but it does actually play out quite well in the combat mechanism. You can see a LOT of differences in the odds between 3 and 3.6 strength! Particularly when that added .6 is further modified by any and all applicable combat modifiers like a 75% defense bonus from the terrain which equates to about another .4 for the battle itself, then another 25% from a promotion that influences the fight and you've got a 6 pt unit in battle in the first example vs a 7.2 in the second. It's multiplicative with any combat modifiers since it's actual base strength. Furthermore, as the strength of the unit goes up the +20% means more and more. It doesn't seem like much on earlier units but on later game units it seems like a ton.
 
You can see a LOT of differences in the odds between 3 and 3.6 strength!

No when you take in account that original unit has been tripled in size. So small increase feels so unrealistic. It doesn't make any sense that when unit force is added by 200 %, it's strength grows only by 20 %.

Combining units is a great idea and excellent way to manage massive amounts of units the game makes possible but currently this strength-thing is way too low. Combined 3,6 unit has no chance at all when same kind of 3,6 unit splits into 3 3 str units and attacks the 3,6 unit on equal grounds and even without surround and destroy. This is way off both in reason and realism.


It doesn't seem like much on earlier units but on later game units it seems like a ton.

That feeling is an illusion, percentage wise the difference is the same. Again it makes absolutely no sense that adding 200 % produces only 20 %.

This combining ability should go with ships and aircraft too. I would make the 3 combined 3 str unit about 7.5. In what file can i change this variable for my game ? Naturally the ai should handle these unit combinings too or the game totally breaks. What is the ai's ability to handle them currently ?
 
When you attack a 3.6 unit with a 3 unit, you will most certainly lose at least one of these while the 3.6 unit can fully recover. Your unit is lost. Of course you don't want to lose your merged unit so keep it save. When you attack and the city has 10 defenders with str 3, which unit would be more effective in the long run? 3*3 or one 3.6? Also, if you don't think that merging brings a benefit, why don't you take the other way round and split your units to a "Single" type? You can get easily 27 or rven 81 units from your former str 3 unit.
 
No when you take in account that original unit has been tripled in size. So small increase feels so unrealistic. It doesn't make any sense that when unit force is added by 200 %, it's strength grows only by 20 %.

Combining units is a great idea and excellent way to manage massive amounts of units the game makes possible but currently this strength-thing is way too low. Combined 3,6 unit has no chance at all when same kind of 3,6 unit splits into 3 3 str units and attacks the 3,6 unit on equal grounds and even without surround and destroy. This is way off both in reason and realism.




That feeling is an illusion, percentage wise the difference is the same. Again it makes absolutely no sense that adding 200 % produces only 20 %.

This combining ability should go with ships and aircraft too. I would make the 3 combined 3 str unit about 7.5. In what file can i change this variable for my game ? Naturally the ai should handle these unit combinings too or the game totally breaks. What is the ai's ability to handle them currently ?

When you attack a 3.6 unit with a 3 unit, you will most certainly lose at least one of these while the 3.6 unit can fully recover. Your unit is lost. Of course you don't want to lose your merged unit so keep it save. When you attack and the city has 10 defenders with str 3, which unit would be more effective in the long run? 3*3 or one 3.6? Also, if you don't think that merging brings a benefit, why don't you take the other way round and split your units to a "Single" type? You can get easily 27 or rven 81 units from your former str 3 unit.
Faustmouse is absolutely correct. This is why there is still game balance. Strength acts more like a Richter scale where every point up is worth exponentially more than the previous point up.

Think of it this way... Strength is 1/3d the Unit's Combat Quality, 1/3d the Unit's Size and 1/3d the Unit's Group Volume. You're currently seeing it as only the Unit's Group Volume which is why it doesn't seem to mathematically make sense. Also look at it from the perspective not only of increasing Group Volume but also Decreasing it. If you have a Battalion (5) sized unit at say strength 9 and a split or merge reduces or increases the unit by anything more than 20%, then once you've split them down to Solo (1) you've got units with negative strength. The way it is now, 4 splits will get each unit a total of -80% strength. One more (which the game shouldn't allow even if the unit starts any higher than Battalion) would mean the unit has 0 str no matter how much strength it started with because it would have a -100% modifier. (Unless Size/Quality has the unit with some +20% modifiers to compensate.)

If, for your game you want to play with the numbers, the % modifier on these are located in the unitcombat file under the size, quality and group unitcombats.
 
Also, if you don't think that merging brings a benefit, why don't you take the other way round and split your units to a "Single" type? You can get easily 27 or rven 81 units from your former str 3 unit.

That would be smartest thing to do according to the current game mechanics. Micromanagement burden of such kind is for dumb masochists only.

I just doesn't make any sense that adding 200 % makes only 20 % and you can't deny this.
 
If you think that would be the smartest thing... Try it ONCE. Split a unit as often as possible and try to conquer a city that is defended with an equal defender. Let me know how it worked out.
 
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