How much Tourism is enough?

So I'm around turn 320 here, shooting for a cultural victory (also ahead in points, so that's a safe backup). I currently have 78 Tourism, which is twice as much as the next guy behind me. But it still feels like nowhere near enough to actually win.

So how much tourism do you guys aim to generate when going for a CV? (Ignoring percent modifiers on individual civs, which I know make a big difference)

Absolutely no less than 300 base. I haven't played a culture game in forever because I find them tedious so I maybe a little off, but I can tell you that 78 isn't near enough.

Your total accumulated Tourism vs. the total accumulated Culture of each civ is what counts. Difficulty level matters a lot as far as the numbers are concerned, and the opposing civs to a lesser degree, but generally the longer the game goes on, the harder it becomes to overtake the top Culture-producing AI's. A general approach is to get any possible theming bonuses you can, get as much Culture that will translate to Tourism(*) as you can, finish Aesthetics, tech to Refrigeration as fast as possible for Hotels, Radar for Airports, Telecommunications for National Visitor Center, and The Internet for The Internet. If all else fails, use Great Musicians to perform Concert Tours in the highest Culture opponents.

(*)Culture that will translate to Tourism
Great Works
World Wonders
Natural Wonders
Improvements(Landmarks, Moai(Polynesia), Chateau(France), and, although the Civilopedia doesn't say, I think the Brazilwood Camp(Brazil) works too)

I recently won a game on Prince(Standard size, Standard speed, France, Pangaea) on Turn 266 only making it just past hotels. Tourism per turn was +123. Two cities, no war, no World Religion, no Louvre theme, no(or very few, 2 at most) Archaeologists. Mostly through World Wonders, theming(France + Aesthetics finisher = AWESOME!) and a few chateaus plus hotels.

Also, two more things

1. Try to be as friendly as you can with civs and send routes, open borders, spies and few other things (including the aestethic finisher/policy) which increases the % of Tourism that is applied to other civ

2. If you can, win both the World Congress Projects that give 100% increased Tourism and Culture, why? Tourism, for obvious reasons, and Culture, well, so you don't let anybody else double their culture output for like 20 turns.

Don't forget to work those theming bonuses! Getting those bonuses, finishing Aesthetics to double them, and being the top finisher in the International Games are awesome for culture victory.

In my last culture game (King) I got lucky and won before I even reached Internet. I can't remember my final Tourism output, sadly, but it was around 200. I worked all the tourism bonuses I could - diplomats, open borders, and trade routes especially (because common religion and common ideology are harder to control). Keep an eye on the meter and do what you can to pump your tourism into the big-culture civs.

Ok that all sounds like some pretty solid advice... I actually just discovered the wonder of theming bonuses. Those are a pretty handy boost and they generally don't seem too hard to get. I also just got my religion named World Religion, which seems pretty useful in the tourism department. Would you all "fanatics" generally recommend that or is it too much work/diplo cost to be worth it?

The exact total you need varies from game to game, depending on how much culture the AI with the most culture gets.

In the end game, your tourism will greatly increase. (National Visitor Center + Internet combined with ideological tenets)

Also, in the end game, a great musican provides a lot of tourism. The base value though is based on how much tourism you were making when it spawned; so unlike great scientists it does no good to wait to use them.

As much as you can get if that's what you're going for. You won't really see cultural effects until you get hotels, airports and the like.

Is a military solution to cultural hold-outs viable? If one civ resisting your influence has a bunch of wonders in its capital, would taking it out turn things around?

Furret said:

Absolutely no less than 300 base. I haven't played a culture game in forever because I find them tedious so I maybe a little off, but I can tell you that 78 isn't near enough.

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Around 1000 tourisme with internet modifier of course. So 500 before internet

Seems a lot but with the national visiter center and airports , hotels it is possible

Brasil + Golden Age + winning that one WC project which gives +100% to tourism + Internet = I managed to have something like 1200 tourism Or maybe even more...

Generally to win, get around 300 after you get hotels in any city that has tourism.

You can only win a cultural victory in the later game. By that point you need to have the National Visitor Center, and the internet, and hotels and airports everywhere, so that you're getting around 1000 per turn.

qemist said:

Is a military solution to cultural hold-outs viable? If one civ resisting your influence has a bunch of wonders in its capital, would taking it out turn things around?

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If you have a military tech lead; yes, conquering the major cities of the civ with the most culture helps.
1. It will greatly reduce that player's culture output. (And if you completely wipe out the civ, he'd also be removed from consideration.)

2. And for the other civs; civs with a lot of culture tend to have a lot of great works, so you'd get more tourism. In addition, he may have world wonders with theming bonuses that you don't.

HanNorwood said:

You can only win a cultural victory in the later game. By that point you need to have the National Visitor Center, and the internet, and hotels and airports everywhere, so that you're getting around 1000 per turn.

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While for most civs, it's true that you'd need the Internet, there are a couple of civs with enough tourism bonuses to win way before then. Civs with the earliest possible tourism victories are Brazil & France.
On a low enough difficulty level to build most world wonders with theming bonuses; both of those civs can achieve a cultural victory in the modern era.

Also that 1000 number is more likely to be an effective tourism (after modifiers such as open borders / trade routes / ideology) rather than a raw.
And in any case, if you start early, you don't need quite as much in the end.

78 is not enough. You need to be gunning for around 1000 as quickly as possible. One technique is to beeline Internet(after Plastics) then Radar, before you win International Games. This is of course you are buying open borders with all civs and trading with them as well, whilst finishing the Aesthetics tree. Another technique is DOW and steal art......

On a side note: winning the World Fair(the one that gives you a golden age and increased culture) should make your culture go to around 1000 or more if you work all guild specialists. This is the time you can bulb as many Great Writers as possible(after 8 turns). Having the Aesthetics tree finished or the Glory of God reformation belief is required so you can rush buy the GW with faith. I once got through 5 SP in one turn by bulbing 3 Great writers whilst generating 1200+ culture, the Cristo Redentor helped with that.

The most tourism I ever influenced(with modifiers) a civ with is 4000+ per turn.

You can finish Aesthetics soon enough without bulbing great writers.
One standard approach:

1. Full Tradition
2. Aesthetics opener + first left side
3. Full Rationalism
4. Complete Aesthetics
5. Only now that you have completed Aesthetics, go for the tenets within your chosen ideology that boost tourism.

CivilizedPlayer said:

So I'm around turn 320 here, shooting for a cultural victory (also ahead in points, so that's a safe backup). I currently have 78 Tourism, which is twice as much as the next guy behind me. But it still feels like nowhere near enough to actually win.

So how much tourism do you guys aim to generate when going for a CV? (Ignoring percent modifiers on individual civs, which I know make a big difference)

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you can never have enough tourism if you go for cultural victory, but you can always use open boarders\religion\diplomats for bonus effects.

oh and you can go always try to punch the guy who will be problematic (produces lots of culture). Just because you are playing for cult. vic. doesn't mean you have to be completely peaceful. (this includes paying up other civs to do your dirty work)

qemist said:

Is a military solution to cultural hold-outs viable? If one civ resisting your influence has a bunch of wonders in its capital, would taking it out turn things around?

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Absolutely. I do it often just to add some fun to the Culture game. It works twofold: that Great Work stops generating the base +2 Culture for them and it starts generating +2 Tourism for you. Any Wonders you get only increase the Tourism and decrease their Culture further.

There's a couple caveats to this though:

In my experience, the best way to get away with this is to wipe out a Culture civ sometime around the Medieval or very early Renaissance eras. This is map-dependent, but you can get away with taking them out before the whole world gets to know you. Do it to an empire or two and you'll have a lot of territory, possibly full of antiquities from your early warring as well.

Once you meet the rest of the world, you can start over on the diplomacy game, but you're a few Great Works farther ahead, possibly a few Wonders farther up, and without a couple competitors.

joncnunn said:

If you have a military tech lead; yes, conquering the major cities of the civ with the most culture helps.
1. It will greatly reduce that player's culture output. (And if you completely wipe out the civ, he'd also be removed from consideration.)

2. And for the other civs; civs with a lot of culture tend to have a lot of great works, so you'd get more tourism. In addition, he may have world wonders with theming bonuses that you don't.

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Thanks. I was worried that warring might kill your influence generally.