Monument or Scout first? Aztecs an early exploration civ?

Athenaeum · May 16, 2015

Normally monument is my first build, but with the Aztecs lately I have been producing a Jaguar first.

I figure that they have a slight advantage in early exploration, due to the fact that they spawn in rough terrain (jungle, forest) that their Jaguar can easily traverse through. Because of this, they have an advantage in acquiring all ruins within the surrounding jungle/forest.

They're surely not as strong an exploration civ as the Shoshone or Spain, but still. This is why I produce a Jaguar first. Also if I kill an early barbarian with the extra Jaguar, it can help compensate for the delayed culture.

I was wondering what peoples' usual build orders are. Does everyone build a monument first, or do some people opt for a scout first, even if they are not an early exploration civ?

Olodune · May 16, 2015

Nearly always scout/jag/pathfinder first, unless I know its a water map (in which case I go worker first). Often double scout if the first scout/warrior suggests plenty of land to explore.

docbud · May 16, 2015

I build a Jag or two first.

Mesix · May 16, 2015

scout
scout
monument

dont's build workers...the AI builds them for you

MarauderCH · May 16, 2015

There is no need to build scouts with the Aztecs. You should be playing on a heavily forested map which will allow your Jaguars to move as fast as scouts most of the time. Plus, you should have Raging Barbs on so your Jaguars can sacrifice them for culture.

Athenaeum · May 16, 2015

Yeah I never produce scouts with the Aztecs. I guess my main question is whether to produce a Jaguar (or scout for any general civ) first or monument.

Normally I have always done monument, but with the Aztecs I figured I'd try something new and go Jaguar first. However I can't help but feel that this is setting me back a few turns in culture.

FaohKi · May 16, 2015

Jag first maybe even 2 jags. Kill every single barbarian and get double culture from them.

Bimblecrumbs · May 16, 2015

I always build a Jaguar first, since it'll work as a scout that's able to farm a part of the culture you'd get from a monument. It's also more likely to be upgraded if it's your first build, and a spear with Jaguar bonuses ravages early barbs for decent culture. Especially if you've opened Honour.

Excluding small island maps I only build a monument first with Ethiopia, and only when I can get a worthwhile pantheon like desert folklore. Scout (or Pathfinder/Jag) 99% of the time; the early ruins/30 city state gold/map knowledge/worker steals etc. are invaluable.

reddishrecue · May 16, 2015

Still double scout monument unless I got gold and get to build jaguars to upgrade later into swordsmen.

phillipwyllie · May 16, 2015

reddishrecue said:
Still double scout monument unless I got gold and get to build jaguars to upgrade later into swordsmen.

Same here but I would build archers to keep farming those barb camps. What would be helpful to know is how much culture do you get from each unit type, same goes for barb kills when Honor is unlocked.

ToothedBomb · May 16, 2015

phillipwyllie said:
What would be helpful to know is how much culture do you get from each unit type, same goes for barb kills when Honor is unlocked.

The culture you get is equal to the combat strength of the defeated unit, isn't it?

A Warrior has 8 :c5strength:

, so if beaten you get 8 :c5culture:

. With the Honor opener this amount is doubled for barbarian units like the Brute.

reddishrecue · May 16, 2015

All the jaguar does is heal when killing a unit but archers do defend a lot more efficiently than average jaguars. The good thing about jaguars is that you can keep woodsman promotion up to swordsman when upgraded.

Lord Alexander · May 16, 2015

I always build a scout first unless I'm playing on like small island maps then there's no point really

ToborajniN · May 18, 2015

I always go for either scout -> monument or scout -> scout -> monument.

More often than not it's the second option. Does depend on what VC I want and the map etc, but I would never even consider the monument over the scout in the game modes I play (pangea-like maps mostly since it's most "even"). I just find it too important to meat civs and exploring my lands / grabbing goodie-huts.

beetle · May 18, 2015

Athenaeum said:
Normally I have always done monument [first, before scout]

The conventional wisdom from the board is scout (or warrior UU) first. You can expect more culture from ruins and CS than 8 extra turns of a monument. And extra culture is one of the least important reasons to have a scout early. I am not sure where you got the idea that most people build a monument before a scout.

However I can't help but feel that this is setting me back a few turns in culture.

Actually, it is your monument-first play that has been setting you back. One lucky ruin is 20 culture. With aggressive scouting, I think you can expect to hit that in half your games.

For Pangaea and continents, scout first is very clearly the way to go. The more interesting question is: “scout, scout, monument” or “scout, monument, scout”? I have not seen a convincing argument (or math) one way or the other.

reddishrecue · May 18, 2015

I used to go monument first but then I found out that I was getting social policies up earlier than the era that the wanted social policy opened.

MerchantCo · May 18, 2015

The monument isn't necessary to build first. Without the scout, however, exploration is really limited and you'll miss out on important ruins.

TheMeInTeam · May 18, 2015

You might as well get the units going to fish for workers and culture ruins. If you get a culture ruin or a few kills giving culture you can use tradition opener to give you the monument unless you're not going tradition.

Usually gold from finding city states faster, ruin bonuses and stolen workers make the early game units boost you more than just making a monument. Keep in mind for special maps like "X plus" where you can't realistically farm XP on city states or steal as many workers that your utility and build order are altered a little, but overall units first is a better move in most cases where you can expect them to uncover more territory faster IMO.

reddishrecue · May 18, 2015

TheMeInTeam said:
You might as well get the units going to fish for workers and culture ruins. If you get a culture ruin or a few kills giving culture you can use tradition opener to give you the monument unless you're not going tradition.

Usually gold from finding city states faster, ruin bonuses and stolen workers make the early game units boost you more than just making a monument. Keep in mind for special maps like "X plus" where you can't realistically farm XP on city states or steal as many workers that your utility and build order are altered a little, but overall units first is a better move in most cases where you can expect them to uncover more territory faster IMO.

The double scout start is good for fishing out workers particularly from the same city state that makes another worker after you stole the first one before that. There's other workers that get made after and that are stealable.

CraigMak · May 18, 2015

Scout, Scout, Shrine. Is my usual build order. Scouts over jags because they are fielded sooner and therefor get ruins and meet CS FIRST. Then it's a jag if I want tributes. 2 jags and 2 scouts are pretty good at getting tributes.

No need for a monument since the Aztec get culture from kills. Just get it for free from Tradition.

Monument or Scout first? Aztecs an early exploration civ?

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