BOTM 100 First Spoiler - 1AD

Ok, "Humbleness" (name of my capital) "we have a problem" . I didn't knew about this mechanic and I think we all will agressively either settle or take over the other continents. We can't create Colonies that are 20 cities large because that'd be worse than paying the colonial maintenance, but this mechanic imo. is the biggest and most stupid /)?"$%&"/$)§ that I've ever seen. I wonder that I never noticed it when playing Space Races on Terra, maybe because I usually only settle 2 cities there first (NP + FP) and chop out the FP very fast. Thx BiC.

[EDIT]

I played my games with the "No Vassals" option and that one deletes the modifier because founding colonies is impossible...
 
State Property also removes colony maintenance, so that could be an option. Not a great one, perhaps, with such a map, but it is an option ;)

Best to get up Forbidden Palace asap. Then there is Versailles too, if you want to take over many continents. For once, Divine Right may actually have some value besides tradebait :D
 
State Property also removes colony maintenance, so that could be an option. Not a great one, perhaps, with such a map, but it is an option ;)

I thought colony maint. was different than distance maint. In other works StateProp would have no effect. I have almost zero experience with colony maint. so I could be wrong.
Thx, Seraiel, for falling into that trap and letting us all know before we get caught too :thumbsup:
 
I thought colony maint. was different than distance maint. In other works StateProp would have no effect. I have almost zero experience with colony maint. so I could be wrong.
Thx, Seraiel, for falling into that trap and letting us all know before we get caught too :thumbsup:

SP does remove it, and by reading that thread that was linked, it is because colony maintenance is capped at 2x distance maintenance, and since SP removes distance maintenance... ;)

PS: It always amazes me how people seem to have links to excellent age-old threads at the tip of their fingers all the time.
 
SP does remove it, and by reading that thread that was linked, it is because colony maintenance is capped at 2x distance maintenance, and since SP removes distance maintenance... ;)

That's a huge bit of info, thx. SP has always been competitive with Corps strategy, but on higher difficulty Corps are considered better..and I normally play Deity. But I'm now thinking that since this is lower difficulty AND SP erases colony maint along with the usual benefits. SP might be the best option. I've never played an SP space race, so that's another tempting reason for me to try it.

Fortunately, I stopped my game at the right time where I can still choose Diplo, Space, SP, or Corps. I suppose I might have settled differently if I was going SP from the start. Jastrow's 20+ cities might be the best opening.
 
I thought colony maint. was different than distance maint. In other works StateProp would have no effect. I have almost zero experience with colony maint. so I could be wrong.
Thx, Seraiel, for falling into that trap and letting us all know before we get caught too :thumbsup:

I'm a fair player and knew that this would be towards your advantage, but to me that is ok, because I already worked out a solution and I also learned a lot from you, so should you win because of this, ok, I can live with 2nd, 3rd or whatever place I get, but could you live with 2nd should I still win though having fallen into this trap? :D
 
That's a huge bit of info, thx. SP has always been competitive with Corps strategy, but on higher difficulty Corps are considered better..and I normally play Deity. But I'm now thinking that since this is lower difficulty AND SP erases colony maint along with the usual benefits. SP might be the best option. I've never played an SP space race, so that's another tempting reason for me to try it.

Fortunately, I stopped my game at the right time where I can still choose Diplo, Space, SP, or Corps. I suppose I might have settled differently if I was going SP from the start. Jastrow's 20+ cities might be the best opening.

No problem :) I've learnt a lot from you over the years, so it's nice to be able to offer a tiny bit back.

Will be interesting to see what you go for. I figured since there are so many sea resources due to the type of map, that Corps would be strong here, but maybe SP can be equally good, particularly taking the lack of colony maintenance into account.
 
Very fun game thus far.

My 1 AD stats:
- 19 cities
- 93 pop
- 380 bpt @ 100%, 160 bpt at break even
- Oracle (CoL), GLH, Hanging Gardens (19 cities), (GLib, Parthenon about to be finished)
- 13 workers
- 13 granaries, 8 libraries, 6 lighthouses, 5 courthouses

I couldn't resist the temptation to go for a warrior rush, my favorite kind of rush. So I settled on the marble hill and went for 3 warriors first that captured London along with a worker on t24.

My tech rate did suffer a bit from distance maintenance and the capital's delayed growth. I didn't mind too much, as my main goal going into this game was to try to emphasize REX over research, which is not my usual play style.

Never got around to popping a Great Person. My first Great Scientist will be out next turn. Education in 7-10 turns if I want it. Here is where my inexperience with non HOF starts surfaces. My capital seems too commerce poor to make Oxford worth it at this point. I'm very tempted to delay it further and go for Calendar/Music/Engineering/Guilds first and keep on REXing. There are still so many great sites to settle and building unis would delay at least some of them. Not sure if that would be a mistake. It will take some planning to get stone hooked up in time for Oxford.

I could have done a better job exploring. No circumnavigation yet. My exploring workboat got lost in Stalinland and has to backtrack a bit. Another exploring workboat ended up as a fishing net. I hope map trades in 3-4 turns will do the trick.

I may try out a corps space game, as I haven't played one in forever. Assuming I have the time to finish.
 
Nice stats and nice to see you join the competition aswell Pollina :) . When I saw that you posted in this thread I thought "ok, now it's gonna get hard" and your stats proof that, even better than Jastrow imo. because of higher pop, but will your inexperience with normal starts become a game-breaker? :D All that I can say was / is, that I loved getting that superearly GS for an Academy and Oxford is just planned for the right time, when the capital will have almost all Villages. It's not the spot that is bad, one simply needs to force onesself to work and grow those Grassland Cottages from the beginning. Ofc. this hurts various areas, but a 500 BPT city also has its charm ^^ .

Why are you btw. playing GOTM now Pollina? Tired of HoF and needing a change for a while? Aniversary game? Because WastinTime, Pangaea and me play? :)

Hope that you find enough time to finish that game, it'd be sad to see such an awesome start not make it towards the finish-line.
 
My tech rate did suffer a bit from distance maintenance and the capital's delayed growth. I didn't mind too much, as my main goal going into this game was to try to emphasize REX over research

- 380 bpt @ 100%, 160 bpt at break even

Looks like you failed. That's a lot of research! :D

Great opening, and I suppose this shows how strong warrior rushing can be, by getting a capital so early. London is an obscenely good spot.

Think we need yet another, hidden, victory condition, so us other chums can do well too :mischief:

I'm actually finishing up a game in the Challenge series now, and you wiped the floor with me there too :cry:

Hopefully some of you write about your games in the final spoiler thread, so we can see how you pulled it off.
 
Wasn't the english capital btw. guarded by an Archer in the beginning? I thought so, because 1 civ started with 6000 soldiers, which is why I didn't even think about Warrior or Chariot-rushing, I thought the map-maker had taken precautions against that.

3 Warriors btw. is mightily lucky Pollina. I rushed in a test-game and lost 4 Warriors without killing 1 defending Warrior which also is why I didn't even try that.
 
Nobody started with archers. 6000 soldiers depended more on starting techs.

I was a little lucky in that assault as well. Attacked with 10 chariots, just in case I miscalculated and there were 2-3 archers guarding the place, but there was just an archer and warrior. Only lost one chariot. He managed to injure the archer fairly well, and the two others won their 70-80% battles.
 
Nice stats and nice to see you join the competition aswell Pollina :) . When I saw that you posted in this thread I thought "ok, now it's gonna get hard" and your stats proof that, even better than Jastrow imo. because of higher pop, but will your inexperience with normal starts become a game-breaker? :D All that I can say was / is, that I loved getting that superearly GS for an Academy and Oxford is just planned for the right time, when the capital will have almost all Villages. It's not the spot that is bad, one simply needs to force onesself to work and grow those Grassland Cottages from the beginning. Ofc. this hurts various areas, but a 500 BPT city also has its charm ^^ .
I have worked some cottages near the capital, but they haven't matured enough to yield much commerce. I tried to work them more, but always ended up whipping them away to build settlers. Aksum's base commerce is about the same as London's. Oxford would only yield ~40 beakers if I were to build it this turn. At first I was hoping to move the capital elsewhere, but there aren't really any good alternatives.

Why are you btw. playing GOTM now Pollina? Tired of HoF and needing a change for a while? Aniversary game? Because WastinTime, Pangaea and me play? :)
I'm not tired of HOF. Not at all. I just like to play a BOTM every once in a while... Well, usually once a year for whatever reason, and I don't always finish my games. BOTM games tend to be more of an energy sink than HOF games, at least for me. It's like playing on deity. Can't do it too often if I don't want to get burnt out.

Looks like you failed. That's a lot of research! :D
Ha! I meant my research rate early on felt slow. Warrior rushing delayed the gold. No chance grabbing CS or even Currency with the Oracle. After GLH and Currency my research rate exploded, obviously.

I'm actually finishing up a game in the Challenge series now, and you wiped the floor with me there too :cry:
Settler/space is fun! :D

Wasn't the english capital btw. guarded by an Archer in the beginning? I thought so, because 1 civ started with 6000 soldiers, which is why I didn't even think about Warrior or Chariot-rushing, I thought the map-maker had taken precautions against that.

3 Warriors btw. is mightily lucky Pollina. I rushed in a test-game and lost 4 Warriors without killing 1 defending Warrior which also is why I didn't even try that.
6000 solidiers is nothing. That's warrior + The Wheel (Justinian).

3 warriors is pretty safe, as long as one is attacking a city on flat land. Haven't done the math, but I would guess the odds are 90%+. I might have built a 4th warrior for a hill city. Maybe.

Guess how many warriors died in London?
Spoiler :
None! :D
 
If you conduct 350 BPT at 100% and Oxford would provide 40 BPT, then that's more than 10% of your total research. In normal games, you cannot expect the values that we accustomed to in HoF like usually 80-100 BPT Oxford, but 40 BPT imo. is still quite something, especially because it gets more quickly if you really always work the weakest Cottage until it's a Village and then continue with the next one. Nothing you need to do if you don't want to, but I'm really curious how the different approaches will turn out, because I don't think that the 20 city approaches are actually that much better than the 10-city-ones.

I'd like to compare a little bit closer because I find this really interesting:

19 cities (Pollina) against 10 cities + 2 Settlers on their way (me)
93 pop against 48 pop
380 BPT @ 100% 160 BPT sustained against 250 BPT @ 100% and 170 BPT sustained
Wonders compareable
13 Workers against 11 Workers
13 Granaries 8 Libraries 6 Lighthouses 5 Courthouses against 9 Granaries 7 Forges 7 Libraries 6 Lighthouses 1 Monestary + Religion spread in all cities running OR
10 Horse Archers (me, Pollina didn't write anything about an army so I assume none)
Capital Academy, 2nd GS almost ready, half GM + half GE + half Prophet ready (all me, would be interesting to get exact information from Pollina here)

And this I find very interesting, because it's not like Pollina or Jastrow would have simply played better imo. , it's 2 completely different approaches. What I find the most interesting i. e. is, that the sustained BPT with 10 cities are higher than with 20 cities, so yes, Pollina and Jastrow have a way higher potential for research, but in fact, they're currently researching slightly slower. Then the Forges that I build make cities 25% more productive and also give great Happiness, imo. 8 Forges could very well be seen as 2 cities, so if I also count the Settlers that are 1 or 2T before reaching their destination, I'd have 14 cities according to that calculation, 15 against 19 already sounds a lot closer than 10 against 20. Pollina definitely got the cheapest rush with 3 Warriors but said herself, that she couldn't oracle CS because of that, Jastrow also didn't oracle CS, still, the teching position seems to be very very similar, maybe Pollina is hanging back a little because she mentioned that she'd look forward to map-trading so I assume no Paper. I also believe I had 1 tech more than Jastrow, but just to be sure, I got IW, MC, Alpha, Maths, Currency, Calendar, Philosophy (on screenshot actually only half but I also already have partly Education, so let's count Philo just because it's very exact in regard to the Beakers I got) , CoL, CS, Paper, also 450 :gold: in the bank which is enough for 6T of research so roughly 1500 BPT possible (enough for Education with the bulb from the almost finished GS) . I'd like very exact information on this from Pollina and Jastrow, because I assume, that the difference between the games is a trade-off of Forges instead of more cities to get an earlier and easier Oxford + GP / Religion against again more cities + I got an army, WastinTime maybe too (he didn't mention how many losses he had against Justi's capital so maybe up to 8 HAs) so army against again more cities.

It may be proven completely wrong in the final spoiler thread and maybe Pollina and Jastrow will be so much up in front, that I'll really feal as bad as BiC mentioned, but I'm still hoping that I won't, because I i. e. invested quite a lot of :hammers: and :gp: into spreading my religion and into generating a Prophet for a shrine and those things can also be seen differently again. When building buildings I actually have a 50% bonus, so if assuming buildings would be the biggest gain from that point on, then I'd have 18 cities (12 +50%) , and an army of 10 HAs imo. can also easily be seen as 2-3 cities.

I do this, because when I first read Jastrow's and Pollina's results, I was shocked, but what I see now, is that it are really trade-offs, basically horizontal expansion (lots of small cities widely spread with TRs as the main source of economy) against vertical expansion (few well developed cities) . If this was Deity, I'd say that the 20-city-players would already have won, but as this is Prince I'm really not sure, because REXing to less cities i. e. also means that the AIs will found more cities in the meantime that can be conquered with very little force probably, and while a Missionary i. e. is a huge investment in the beginning, it actually pays back the whole game and it gives interesting options like early Pacifism to jump forward by several bulbs.

What I'm sure about, is, that the person that gets the 1 tech / turn tech-rate at earliest will win the game, and that is something that cannot be calculated or judged by just number of cities or whatever, because investing heavily into a super-strong-capital with Oxford + preparing a GA-chain to create tons of Great People to bulb, bulb and bulb might i. e. result in 10T earlier Corporations, and that could change a whole game. Maybe even with less cities then 1 tech / turn would be reachable earlier because Corps (or State Propety) are just greater advantages then i. e. the land owned, we saw that in BOTM 97, where Jastrow beat me by 4T from half the number of cities while simply being a lot earlier to corps than me.
 
I dont remember exactly which techs I had... Your list sounds similar to what I expect, but I will have to check. I dont like opening old game files while the game is still on-going (because accidental mis-clicks might look like cheating), so that will have to wait until I finish.

In general, I agree with your however that there is no clear and obviously leader at this stage. Polina, and I are similar and very close, whereas you and WT are quite different, which makes it hard to evaluate, but from a gut feeling very close as well. It will be interesting to see how the games develop (Unfortunately for me, I expect to lose ground because I am clearly the weakest warmonger of us 4).

I dont fully agree that getting to tech-a-turn first will necessarily win... Tech a turn can be a bit wasteful as it is hard to make use of GA, and you can waste research... Sometimes being first to ~4000 bpt can be enough to hold on to the lead, even if the empire tops out short of tech-a-turn. But yes, the winner is likely the first one to have the research explosion that takes him into that research level.
 
It may be proven completely wrong in the final spoiler thread and maybe Pollina and Jastrow will be so much up in front, that I'll really feal as bad as BiC mentioned.

Oh, don't worry about me, I've gotten well over it by now :lol:
I made an early gambit that didn't pay off, then got sloppy. Well, my bad, whatever.
Can't read all of them maps right.

There are still a lot of decisions to be made in this game and it is a good training anyway.
 
Only 2 posts in the final spoiler thread 'til now? Has everybody just made a pause like WT, have you given up or are you all taking this as serious as you should? :joke: I've entered the final phase of my game, but won't spoil anything so that you others don't gain additional advantages to the knowledge about the colonial mechanics ;) . Would be interested in knowing who's still playing, how far the game has proceeded or when you think you'll submit the game. Plz don't say that you'll wait 'til the last day for whatever reasons, the after-round-discussion is just plain boring when everybody holds back and tries to keep a secret.
 
I am still playing and have every intention of finishing. I will not say anything more than that no to risk a spoiler.
 
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