Scout or Monument?
- Thread starter werothegreat
- Start date
To be honest, it's been like this ever since they introduced Culture in Civ 3.
In Civ 3 'winners' always recommend Scouts then Libraries rather than Temples.
In Civ 4 'winners' always recommend Scouts then Libraries rather than Obelisks.
I'm guessing Monuments are the new word for the early Culture building, and the devs still haven't found a way to make this building more balanced/useful
People do like them, even pro's will get the obligatory Wonder which provides one for free in all cities - if there's a way to do it which doesn't undermine their strict objectives - but going for the single building, in a prime city, early on, always seems to get the thumbs down.
In Civ 3 'winners' always recommend Scouts then Libraries rather than Temples.
In Civ 4 'winners' always recommend Scouts then Libraries rather than Obelisks.
I'm guessing Monuments are the new word for the early Culture building, and the devs still haven't found a way to make this building more balanced/useful
People do like them, even pro's will get the obligatory Wonder which provides one for free in all cities - if there's a way to do it which doesn't undermine their strict objectives - but going for the single building, in a prime city, early on, always seems to get the thumbs down.
SammyKhalifa
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2003
- Messages
- 6,308
To be honest, it's been like this ever since they introduced Culture in Civ 3.
In Civ 3 'winners' always recommend Scouts then Libraries rather than Temples.
In Civ 4 'winners' always recommend Scouts then Libraries rather than Obelisks.
I'm guessing Monuments are the new word for the early Culture building, and the devs still haven't found a way to make this building more balanced/useful
People do like them, even pro's will get the obligatory Wonder which provides one for free in all cities - if there's a way to do it which doesn't undermine their strict objectives - but going for the single building, in a prime city, early on, always seems to get the thumbs down.
I think it's just that you can get them for free going tradition. And a culture ruin is a pretty common "get" with the scout you built instead, which when you think about is five turns worth of that monument you were going to make.
HelloGoodbye123
Warlord
Neither, I build another jaguar because it gets me to crossbows at turn 55 
HelloGoodbye123
Warlord
Well it does, if one of them turns to a spear you are golden!
werothegreat
Warlord
So I gave both opening Scout and going straight through Tradition a try.
Pros:
-I had a nice amount of money flowing, and never had a deficit.
-I had five cities before I'd even started building Notre Dame.
-These cities are growing nicely.
Cons:
-Everything other than my capital is POOP. My other cities may be 4's and 5's, but it takes them 40 turns just to build a Shrine.
-My Scouts are whiffing a lot. Ruins are really not very reliable.
-By the time I got my Enhancer Prophet, there were THREE Follower beliefs left. I didn't even want to look at which Reformation beliefs were left.
-I missed more than half the Wonders I went for. The +Production Policy in Liberty is very strong, I feel, and more useful early game than the +15% Production to Wonders policy in Tradition.
Bottom line - I'm going to stick to opening Tradition, opening Piety, and zooming through Liberty. The free GP finisher does NOT reset the timer, and is very useful. However, I will probably go through Tradition after Liberty instead of Piety, which is what I've been doing, because I can live with not getting To the Glory of God if I can purchase GEs with Faith in the Industrial Era no matter what. However, I think I will swap my build order and build a Scout before I build my Monument.
Pros:
-I had a nice amount of money flowing, and never had a deficit.
-I had five cities before I'd even started building Notre Dame.
-These cities are growing nicely.
Cons:
-Everything other than my capital is POOP. My other cities may be 4's and 5's, but it takes them 40 turns just to build a Shrine.
-My Scouts are whiffing a lot. Ruins are really not very reliable.
-By the time I got my Enhancer Prophet, there were THREE Follower beliefs left. I didn't even want to look at which Reformation beliefs were left.
-I missed more than half the Wonders I went for. The +Production Policy in Liberty is very strong, I feel, and more useful early game than the +15% Production to Wonders policy in Tradition.
Bottom line - I'm going to stick to opening Tradition, opening Piety, and zooming through Liberty. The free GP finisher does NOT reset the timer, and is very useful. However, I will probably go through Tradition after Liberty instead of Piety, which is what I've been doing, because I can live with not getting To the Glory of God if I can purchase GEs with Faith in the Industrial Era no matter what. However, I think I will swap my build order and build a Scout before I build my Monument.
Industrial age GE are less useful than GS I rarely need to rush a wonder after medieval. This is mostly because by that point I expect to be head on tech.
Acken
Deity
Yes picking great prophet from liberty increases the GSME counter for some reason.
OP: Scout first unless island map.
After that it's either 2nd scout or monument.
And don't Open 3 different trees :/
OP: Scout first unless island map.
After that it's either 2nd scout or monument.
And don't Open 3 different trees :/
Acken
Deity
Work some production tiles and try to settle on hills. Shrine is a 40H building, if it takes you 40 turns you have 1 hammer...
You'll still get some, meet other civs and get money from CS.
More a problem with weak pantheon than not opening Piety. Many people like to enhance with Hagia Sophia though.
The +1 production from Liberty is weaker for wonders than the 15%, unless you try to build wonders with less than 10 production... +1 prod is nice overall though but I doubt it's the reason why you lose wonders.
It's your game but I'm pretty sure opening Piety isn't worth it just for the opener. Especially if you already dip also in 2 other trees. Good luck finishing any before T120.
MrDumpstertrash
Chieftain
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2014
- Messages
- 30
Side note, how many early wonders are you building, and why are you? Also, Rationalism? Full tradition and liberty and piety opener leaves you with not too much left until ideologies. But hey, it's your game
also I'm new to this forum so I dont know how to only quote parts of statements.. sorry!
This.
But of course I would agree, having learned to play the game mainly from Jon's posts!
Waywocket
Warlord
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2011
- Messages
- 143
I was assuming this question was going to be about what you build after the first scout, where I think there is a real debate to be had about the trade-off, but building a monument first just seems like madness. I have a hard time imagining that this is ever a good idea, unless you know you're starting on tiny islands or similar.
I suppose if you have ruins turned off and we're planning on playing liberty, it would be Ok
vorlon_mi
Emperor
I was looking for an option in the poll for "both", but didn't see it.
I always build a scout first, because they're cheap and I need to see the land around me, and to meet my neighbors. I may well build a monument *also* in my first city, to get the culture going, but it probably won't be the second or third builds.
I always build a scout first, because they're cheap and I need to see the land around me, and to meet my neighbors. I may well build a monument *also* in my first city, to get the culture going, but it probably won't be the second or third builds.
SDEngineer
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2010
- Messages
- 31
I go scout-scout to open on any likely large landmass world, for the same reasons that others have stated - city state gold gifts + ruin pops. The more ruins you can pop quickly, the more likely you are to get the really nice ruin rewards. A culture ruin snapped up by a built scout just paid for that monument and then some. A scout upgraded to a archer is 200g you don't have to spend in a rush buy when Monty starts moving jaguars towards you (not to mention an awesome unit on it's own that can "kite" enemy units like nobody else). And scouts are much faster at finding ruins and meeting city states than your starting warrior is.
reddishrecue
Some dude on civfans
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2009
- Messages
- 6,213
So it's scout first and then monument. I thought it was monument first and then scout.
Not exactly - if you're going Tradition, which is the usually prefered opening, you're gonna get the early culture building anyway. Although you might still hard-build it if you don't get an early culture ruin.
If you're going Liberty (or Honor or Piety), you'll need those Monuments super-early, or acquiring policies will take forever.
neilkaz
King
I am almost entirely a Tradition player. Standard build on any land mass map for me is scout/scout/and then usually shrine. Finding an early culture ruin is so nice. Getting an upgrade to a scarcher is so nice. Extra pop is also nice. And then there's gold and later faith. Meeting CS first is really nice, especially two quick religious one for a quick pantheon.
What are the thoughts on opening Stele first with Ethiopia?
.. neilkaz ..
What are the thoughts on opening Stele first with Ethiopia?
.. neilkaz ..
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