Cultural victory needs reworking or eliminating

Gabse said:

When are you winning with Culture the earliest?

I'm specializing in science games and can easily do turn 250-260 (standard speed, so I guess thats early 1800s) on the top2 difficulties (used be be 230-240 before G&K).

I'm just wondering if that can be matched, otherwise I'm not moving from science or stealth bomber domination, cultural always seemed to be a gamble with too many must haves and staying fragile for the entire game.

G.

Click to expand...

I play epic speed and usually get culture victories in the mid to late 1800's. I've managed one around 1810 in G&G with Aztecs OCC, but I chose raging barbarians to give me a headstart and Pangaea to spread my religion early and maximise my gains from world church. I haven't been able to get one before 1800 yet.

Vatras said:

I managed to win a culture victory (first time in Civ V´for me) with Egypt by 2020, but there must be way better means to do it than my "build more wonders" approach.
It definitely works, but without a plan it probably won't fly.

Click to expand...

It's not really "build more wonders", it's "build the right wonders"--wonders focusing on culture and growth, primarily.

Setting up the proper beliefs with your religion and then spreading it liberally, allying yourself with cultural/mercantile city states, getting your cultural buildings into your cities as early possible, getting those artist specialists going ASAP as well, doing whatever you can to increase your empire's happiness (first to maximize the benefit of Mandate of Heaven, second to increase the frequency of golden ages you earn)...it all contributes, as does even more.

All that said, playing a "perfect" cultural game is only going to get you to the Utopia Project sooner...even without doing most of the fine-tuning stuff, you can back into a cultural win relatively easily.

prince_caspian said:

One important thing to remember: even though the name is cultural victory, science is all-important. Play like you're aiming for a space victory - grab all the key cultural techs to grab the key cultural wonders. That is how you can snatch wonders away from AIs - by being so ahead in tech. Except once you've reached Radio then you can breathe much easier and start being aggressive if you want to.

Click to expand...

And what it really boils down to is food. Food, food, food. More food is more pop is more science, and also more cash and production. And you need a lot of food to fill those Artist slots and work those Landmarks and still keep your city growing.

My first win in G&K was an emperor level OCC cultural victory with Egypt...

I did some testing and can confirm that cultural victory is only slightly slower vs. science currently. On standard speed I managed around turn 270 for science and 280 for culture (very early 1800s). Cultural is a bit easier from the point that you don't need to build all those parts and no need for aluminium, plus you have this feeling of doing something good for the heart. )

I still think Science is easier than Culture. Culture is probably the hardest as you get dragged into a war and you can still win scientifically and diplomatically. But once you annex some enemy cities or devote large amounts of production to war or anything other than culture it is almost impossible to go back.

I often just play and used to win a lot diplomatically because it was just quicker and easier for me. But on the highest difficulty levels the AI just out bought the vote. Now with spies and unending quests combined with all the options from religion it might be easier to win diplomatically on the higher levels.

Space definitely takes more time as you have to research more of the tech tree. I had the Apollo Program but had not discovered fertilizer. Once you get a solid lead tech is probably the way to go unless you want to launch a large scale invasion of another continent. I don't adjust the settings to make it easier to win my preferred strategy, though I admit increasing the games speed has some appeal. I play 'small' maps due to my computer's processing power but on standard pace and random most everything but my starting civ.

Religion is subtly powerful. I'm pretty good at spreading it, but I've only finished two games so I don't know what my favourite beliefs are, I want to try tradition + liberty rather than either/or which is what I did in my first two games. Both are popular with AI and can work with a cultural victory.

Piety I've yet to try in G&K as I'm a big fan of Patronage. I usually start it ASAP. I like both Freedom and Order and I finished Patronage before starting Order last game, I'm tempted to open one of the last three up quickly just to see about diplomacy. Atila all of a sudden was my friend once he started Order and Napoleon I guess became the enemy as I know he prefers Freedom from my first game.

Both games I took 'peaceful beliefs' and both games I was attacked early and often so that I cleaned out my starting continent. I annexed some of the nicer cities and won a scientific victory in my second game. My first G&K I lost, but I was just trying things like religion and espionage out. I switched to perhaps my favourite Civ, Arabia and won comfortably once I defeated Askia and Seuliman (sp?).

I don't know if it's "easier" than domination, but for me it's certainly far less tedious . . .

Disgustipated said:

It just seems to me everyone is bragging about how good they are at the game, but won't tell us how they did it. I'm tired of people saying they win at the higher levels and anyone who can't beat deity isn't a man.

Click to expand...

Golden ages are now very very important for cultural victories. Getting a 75+ turn GA is very very helpful. Because of this Chichen Itza is extremely helpful for cultural. Similarly finishing Freedom ASAP is just as helpful. Start a natural GA and build Taj Mahal for 40 turns and burn some Artists.

First win was King Cultural win as Byzantine.. Turn 380ish.

Small continents, Standard pace.

- Got second religion, went Tithe, Papal Primacy (with bonus), Religious Texts, Mosques, Swords to Plowshares.
- Built a TON of wonders, all the cultural oriented ones I could
- Settled 3 cities
- Religion spread passively to whole world but about 5 cities (mostly other Holy Cities)
- Tradition -> Piety -> Patronage (Philantrophy and Aesthetics first) -> Freedom -> Finish Patronage -> Commerce
- Settled two GPs and about 6 GAs, after that bought GAs with faith and popped golden ages
- Last 70ish turns were Golden Age (Taj plus a bunch of post-Freedom artists)
- Puppeted all of Mongolia since they wouldn't take peace and were screwing up my 'peaceful' strategy.

Overall the game was very easy and I regretted stepping down from Emperor. Had a couple token wars aside from Mongolia begging for annihilation. Had DOF with 3 other AIs for almost whole game, spammed RAs as much as I could. No AI was close to victory at the end.

R17MCMLXXIX said:

Ok I ignored religion, but I decided to use it, but France took me on at turn 60 was 1 turn from losing my city, China took me on, I got to a point, where my techs weren't far off france, but I'd have 4 trebechets not even making a dent in his musketmen.

If you look at the game I'm playing, France had about 15 city states declaring war on me, so a bit hard to gain any status from them.

Im only playing with one city, just forgot to hit the one city challenge. I've basically gone down the tradition policy tree, then peity, with intentions to go down freedom, but I can't see myself winning by 1900s which will need to happen.

Firstly have I missed anything here, built too many wonders? I struggle to see how people say this is so easy?

I'll include save games from turn 0 and where I was up to, to give you an idea of how things are and whether I'm just on a bad map for one city challenge.

Click to expand...

Some thing I noticed from the middle of the game save:

First, you have 2 flood plains that don't even have farms. You have 2 farmed riverside grasslands that are not being worked. You have 2 un-improved marshes on the river as well as a hill. A second worker wouldn't be a bad idea, you can always delete one later. You want to be working as many food tiles as possible to soar in pop so you can work specialists and landmarks.

Second, you generated an engineer and placed it on silver. A great person tile only connects strategic resources. Silver is a luxury. The engineer was only generated very late (140 or so I think from the log). This leads to the next point

One of the earliest slots available is for artists, either from Ampitheater or Cathedral. Get one of those loaded as soon as is feasible. The earlier you get one, the better. I'd settle the first artist.

The choices for your religion aren't the best suited for OCC cultural. World Church would be good. If you want Interfaith Dialogue, you should get the one that increases missionary strength.

You have 2300 gold, and no city state allies....

Not teching Bronze working is also interesting, I think missing things like Terracota army and potential iron could be costly.

As for policies, I cannot determine the order in which you took them, but as soon as Piety is available you want to work toward the cost reduction policy, even hold off finishing tradition. Afterward finishing Freedom for double great person tile and longer GAs is ideal.

Hope some of that helps

From my experience so far, cultural victory is pretty easy up to Emperor/Immortal. Especially if you take a civ like Ethiopians (+2 culture/+2 faith from Stele, +20% strength when having fewer cities than enemy civ).

Most culture will come from allied cultural CS, so in the early game you can focus on NC, religion, expansion, defense. Usually the gifted units of an allied military CS are sufficient for defense, so you can focus 100% on buildings and wonders.

You should have 2, 3 or 4 cities. For a cultural win, 2 excellent cities are better than 4 average ones. NC opening can be very strong, depending on neighboring civs.

Cookie-cutter social policies: Tradition --> Piety --> Patronage --> Freedom

Use espionage and the CS science bonus from Patronage to keep an average/good tech level. No need to be first in tech. Put spies in CS which are important for you and contested. Spy on some civ nobody likes or is no threat.

Usually you want and will probably have high extra happiness. This plus the (later) Great Artists means many Golden Ages. If you can get Chichen Itza it gives a very nice boost. Sistine Chapel is not a must, but obviously helps a lot.

When you have the choice between Pagodas and Cathedrals, the former is often superior, because you get half of extra happiness as culture from the Piety tree. Spread your religion to CS to save gold. With an early inquisitor you can often avoid being converted (move the inquisitor to your city the AI wants to convert) in the first place, so you save a lot of faith in the long run.

To sum it up, for a cultural victory you focus much less on military and science, in order to put those resources into your economy (gold, culture, faith) and CS alliances.
Of course, if you have the opportunity to make some puppet cities along the way, go for it.

SeismoGraf said:

From my experience so far, cultural victory is pretty easy up to Emperor/Immortal. Especially if you take a civ like Ethiopians (+2 culture/+2 faith from Stele, +20% strength when having fewer cities than enemy civ).

Click to expand...

Cultural CS are very helpful, but they're less important in G&K than in vanilla simply because there aren't that many around. I usually get much mroe culture from Mandate of Heaven than directly from CS. It doesn't mean cultural CS are not important, but they don't have to be top priority.

You should have 2, 3 or 4 cities. For a cultural win, 2 excellent cities are better than 4 average ones. NC opening can be very strong, depending on neighboring civs.

Click to expand...

I prefer four. I have experimented with less, but the lower policy cost isn't enough to outweight the advantage of more cities, and I want to get the full benefit from Legalism and the Tradition finisher.
A good capital will have the most wonders and contribute about haf of the in a four-city empire, but I still want to have one dedicated unit production city to stay safe and two others for general economic support and to claim resources, especially luxuries.

When you have the choice between Pagodas and Cathedrals, the former is often superior, because you get half of extra happiness as culture from the Piety tree.

Click to expand...

That's another thing I have to disagree with. The basic stats make the Pagoda look like a no-brainer, but if you're going for a culture victory the additional artist slot from Cathedrals makes up for it.

GoodSarmatian said:

The basic stats make the Pagoda look like a no-brainer, but if you're going for a culture victory the additional artist slot from Cathedrals makes up for it.

Click to expand...

If I'm going for a cultural win I try to get both.

They're never going to eliminate the cultural victory. I really don't know why you'd even suggest it as a possibility.

I just won a Cultural Victory last night on King with the Aztecs. Farmed a barb camp that appeared blissfully surrounded by mountains, and founded a religion based on the culture from jungles pantheon. Went Tradition, Honor, Patronage, Freedom and Rationalism.

Really wasn't terribly difficult, just had to keep my Jaguars alive so when the AIs decided to DOW me, I'd ROFLstomp them and get all the culture from their mistake. I also had to invade Siam, burn down their cities and pillage their Landmarks, as they were clearly going for the same victory as me.

Aztecs aren't the usual cultural victory type, but the theory is the same: build 4 cities, found a culture based religion and keep up/ahead in techs and military.

timeasymmetry said:

4. world domination? ha! i have yet to succeed with that even using prince on a standard map.

Click to expand...

Really? By the time I walk out of my first few wars on King, my army is so strong I can walk right over the rest of the world without much resistance. The reason they made early warring so much more difficult in G&K was because Domination was so easy to do in most games. It was the only victory you could conceivably win before the ADs.

Securion said:

How can you struggle with a cultural victory? Just press Next Turn for two hours and you will win. Really, how hard can that be? Its very easy on Deity level, should be even easier on lower level.

Click to expand...

The difficulty goes up when an opposing Civ has decided to also go for the Cultural Victory route. Battling for Wonders and CSs can be a massive pain.