Pacal's (Ball) Court

Oh, right!
I forgot the save file!

Maybe you could hit Mansa really hard but vassalize him instead of kill him, then demand tech from him?

Man, that was a good turnset of story!

Now you are in a bad situation, which I can't help you with, as I am 100% cultural and 0% militaristic!

Firstly maximize your science. In your conquered cities (Persia) cottage spam the hell out of the place. Also, as you are financial, work as many water tiles as you can in your coastal cities down south.
You should try and conquer you continent first before the industrial age if possible. You could leave them with one city if they're more advanced in tech and demand their techs as said before.

I would attack Mansa and try to vassalize him.Attacking to Mehmed would be not too good.You share cosmology He can be a loyal friend.
Attack Sitting Bull hits your economy more badly,i think.

I'll give you my 2c worth my characiture driven friend.

You should hit Mansa hard. make him your vassal.....his tech help will come in quite handy!

Get Mehmned in a nasty little war with the native Americans...so they don't get any ideas.

Take Mansa. Take him quick.

Gandhi -

Curses that I don't have BtS...
Honestly, it doesn't look too bad. The power of financial is about to be unlocked with free speech + PP, so your going to recover soon. Plan for next round should be consolidate, consolidate, consolidate. Rush courthouses, make cottages mature, and focus in you mian cities on units, and lots of them. Take out the Malinese first; since they only have 3? cities they will be more use dead than vassalized. Destroy Mehmed next. By not beelining GP (stoopid AI! ), he has no UU, so you should be able to steamroll him. Meanwhile, convert to Cofucianism to keep Sitting Bull happy, then take him out once his impregnable defense drops. The whole time, you should be privateering to keep the others busy and to generate revenue, and don't forget to build a fleet to transport your troops so you can ship your units over to Charlemange, in order to take him ot for the win. If yoou can, keep the buddhist block busy by setting Shaka on them and focusing your espoinage on them, forcing them to devote more funds to espionage than to science, which should slow them down.

Vassalize Mansa. He is too weak to counter enough numbers. Also, go for alot of courthouses, start messing w/ espionage + spies to get some of your enemies techs, from what I understand, stealing technology takes much less commerce and time than reasearching it, and brute spy power can overwhelm their tech leads.

Is it just me, or does Charlemagne look like that Burger King guy in that game they made? It's kinda creepy.

I will quickly look at the save and post back in a couple of minutes with recommendations.

EDIT: As promised, here is the analysis:

• Trade Lit to Shaka for world map + 70 gold
• Trade resources to Ghandi and Perciles
• Bribe Mehemed into war with Mansa 9it will be expensive, oh well)
• Watch out, Shaka and Charlemagne both say "We have enough on our hands right now" meaning they are planning wars.
• Whip Cozume, then start lighthouse.
• Change Lakamha from working forested-hill to water tile
• Bump up slider to run deficit research
• Change research to PP. When the GS comes, bulb PP. Then tech whore it off. You should be able to get 5-6 techs from tech whoring. This will alleviate most of your tech deficit.
• Keep selling techs to backwards civs.

Shoot the Moon said:

Is it just me, or does Charlemagne look like that Burger King guy in that game they made? It's kinda creepy.

I will quickly look at the save and post back in a couple of minutes with recommendations.

EDIT: As promised, here is the analysis:

• Trade Lit to Shaka for world map + 70 gold
• Trade resources to Ghandi and Perciles
• Bribe Mehemed into war with Mansa 9it will be expensive, oh well)
• Watch out, Shaka and Charlemagne both say "We have enough on our hands right now" meaning they are planning wars.
• Whip Cozume, then start lighthouse.
• Change Lakamha from working forested-hill to water tile
• Bump up slider to run deficit research
• Change research to PP. When the GS comes, bulb PP. Then tech whore it off. You should be able to get 5-6 techs from tech whoring. This will alleviate most of your tech deficit.
• Keep selling techs to backwards civs.

Click to expand...

At least one person gets the lame "Whopper" or "Chichen Tenders" comments...
I played a game as Charlemagne and, as luck would have it, I eventually had a fun event in regards to a Cow tile -> Fast Food Chain created.
Can't make those things up, I tell ya!


- I didn't notice I could sell something to Shaka, groovy!
- I had traded stuff with Pericles earlier in the game, but at one point, he cancelled the deals. I guess he's interested again...
- Bribing Mehmed into a war shouldn't be too bad an idea. Don't know if it should be Mansa, though.
- Yes, Shaka and Charlemagne are planning a war... unless they made peace while I wasn't looking, they're at war with each other.
- Bulbing Printing Press is an idea...


Man, I still don't know who I should attack.
Mansa is a fairly easy target, like Mehmed (I assume), I'm pretty sure I could handle Sitting bull without too much trouble either.

On the other hand, maybe I over-estimate the power of Forbidden Palace, but I'd really like that thing on the other continent, Ideally right where Aachen is - Charlemagne's easternmost continental city, I believe.
But, do I over-estimate Forbidden Palace?

When I can, in previous easy Noble games (especially efficient with Terra maps) I'd have my capital, Versailles in a more distant and possibly central location on the main continent, combined with Forbidden Palace on another continent... worked wonders for lowering maintenance costs of a large empire.
Unlike the AI who stupidly often builds Versailles in the city right next to the Capital...
But it occurs to me that I might be the only one who loves Versailles (when I have an appropriate location). Though, I'm not going to build Versailles for sure, anyways. Only the FB.

I wouldn't bet on actually gaining any vassals. I usually never get the chance, some other Civ scooping them up before I ever get the chance.
In short, gaining a vassal shouldn't be a main ingredient to a plan, just an option.

I love Versailles too, even with a small empire. I just can't stop myself when I see this +10 culture. <-- noob.



Anyway, you said that Mansa Musa has other isle cities? if you take the 3 continental cities, he surely vassalize. He is one of the easiest to become a vassal. And with 3.13, the AI is more likely to capitulate to the person who made the most damage in the war against them.

Thought I would take the time to reply with a little advice to help turn the tides, so that there is a happy ending.

My first observation is you have 'rugged' terrain, and less than one worker per city. With that type of terrain I usually get pretty close to two workers per city.

Cozumel looks like an ideal chioce for the globe theatre. With three food sources of 5+, and little else going on it is an ideal place to learn what whipping is really about. Without any unhappy issues and enough prod you can draft and whip like you wouldnt believe.

If you are going for a militaristic approach I would suggest securing a hold on the new continent. You have two chioces, Mansa and Shaka for an easy foot-hold. Astronomy is all the tech you need for that. Once you establish a foot hold on the new continent you can begin to use inginuity in strategy, and terrain bonuses to devastate the alliance production.

Personally I would take Mansa out entirely, and raze Kumbi and let the little green men re-settle the area for cultural/religious reasons.

I'd take Djenne last, raze it and move it south a tile too. If you can work up an artist and drop him down on the Djenne replacement city you've secured a foot-hold.

You also have shaka to help double-team Charlemagne. Trust me, if Shaka is good for anything it's war. You have all the ingredients on that island to disrupt the trading alliance.

Usually the AI is a little slow to get steel. Cannons if teched early enough lead to a huge edge. Don't be afraid to give Shaka and Mehmed some serious free tech. You want to bring them up to speed with you, and then work (hard) to keep up with them.

Take espionague (ctrl+e) off of people like Ghandi and other people you have no interest in associating with. You want to see what your friends are teching so you can compliment them.

Consider leaving the rest of the little islands alone (unless they have an essential military resource). They are higher maint, harder to defend and take more TLC than they are worth. If you don't take them someone else will. They will either be a) easy pickings after doing all the hard work or b) helping out a friendly ai with no maint handicap.

Consider picking sides a little more. It looks like you are trying to make everybody happy. When that happens either (a) everyone is happy, and they trade alot. This leads to tech whoring you cant keep up with. (b) everyone isn't getting along and your trying to get along with everyone... upsetting most people.

Try harder to convince Sitting Bull to convert to Cosmology. A prophet will come eventually, making it profitable in more than one way. If Elizabeth wasn't in love with Free Religion I would suggest switching to her favourite civic to gain an OB and spread cosmology there... but you can see there are some flaws in this plan. #1 being she will just switch to free religion, and the religious discord you spread will be wasted effort.

Collect more intel on Greece. You can't spot a weakness or a dangerous threat if you don't have intel. Also scout your poles out better. You want to know what resources these people are vying for.

Try to get some more of your UB's up, and grow that extra pop. You are happy capping your core cities. You are #1 in land area, and #6 in population with your recent war. Bring that pop up (as a priority over production and commerce in the short term) to match and you will be out-preforming the AI tech/prod on an individual basis. Once the pop is up you can re-work your land (with all those extra workers your going to build) and re-terraform the landscape for more commerce.

If you find taking Charlemagne's land too large an economic burden consider founding a Colony.

I would also consider moving your palace someplace a little more central. It's hard to keep in touch with your thriving people when you live on a throne of ice.

Last of all I wish to bring you this one last piece of news. Nobody on the eastern continent has any iron. How can you capitalize that best? Could friend Shaka use Iron? Can you press an assult pre-rifling to capitalize?

You will only be able to take advantage of some of the advice I have. Pick and choose the path you feel will be most profitable. I believe you will be able to travel from the Malinese to Old School Roman Empire to England with relative ease. After that feel free to pick on whoever happens to be weakest. There may be no need to pick on Greece or India if they are too advanced for you. (If you dont plan to war Greece keep a fair distance from their borders!)

PS Your governments are ripe for a change. Barracks are nice, but barracks + vassalage or theocracy is a new unit skill out of the box. With your quantity of cities I would consider going Vassalage + Organized Religion.

PPS I think you are over-estimating the Forb, but I could be wrong, I am used to Immortal Difficulty. Regardless, taking wonders is often alot easier than building wonders. See where Versailles lands. Maybe Elizabeth will be kind enough to make it for you. Having said that I fully expect Greece to make it. They've been playing a solid game. Athens has some of the best wonders. Also when you get your scientist, I wouldn't blow him on 770 research points. I'd tuck him away and GA to help troop spam for a big war after your persian lands are built up, or make an academy in a worthy city. The research per turn for the Academy pays for itself in the long run many times over, and the GA giving you that extra douzen troops right when you've teched a new gizmo that goes boom is priceless. Also next time you get a general consider promoting up a medic III unit to improve your turn around time on heals between cities for your large armies, and gain the ability to make west point. Medic I promotions don't stack. The troop with the highest Medic Bonus spreads the affects to the rest of your army. The medic is the ideal troop to pamper for xp on the easy kills, and level up. Your Military Academy won't take affect until you get the Military Science tech.

Flouzemaker said:

In short, gaining a vassal shouldn't be a main ingredient to a plan, just an option.

Click to expand...

Well, if you don't bring in any war allies they can only submit to you. Additionally, if you're in 3.13 now, they changed the AI so it's more likely to capitulate to the country that did the most damage to it in the war now.

I think that vassalizing Mansa is a very realistic goal, and you can take all of his actually good cities in the process.

Excellent story! Looking foward to the next installment.

I must say I thoroughly approve of the idea that leaders should have to make a 'blood offering' before taking their nation to war. A Mayan custom long overdue for reviving IMHO - although personally I wouldn't allow Bush & Blair the 'earlobes' option...

SeerTenedos said:

Also when you get your scientist, I wouldn't blow him on 770 research points. I'd tuck him away and GA to help troop spam for a big war after your persian lands are built up, or make an academy in a worthy city. The research per turn for the Academy pays for itself in the long run many times over, and the GA giving you that extra douzen troops right when you've teched a new gizmo that goes boom is priceless.

Click to expand...

The problem with that argument is that you aren't taking into account the beakers that will be gained from tech whoring PP. When I played through, I was able to get 5-6 techs from tech whoring. That is a lot more beakers than what the academy will provide (in addition, beakers now are worth more than beakers later).

AnnRQuay in the UK

Ah the only bright spot from the 70's mate!

I was thinking... since I can't count on the birth of a Great Artist (odds are really quite low), the faster I can take hold of a few cities on the other continent, the better - you know, before their culture assuredly overwhelms my acquisitions.
For that purpose, I should stay away from the probable culture monsters: Elizabeth, Pericles, and Gandhi.

Also note that I don't absolutely need Astronomy to invade the other continent - Astronomy only means I don't require as large a fleet. Since the HRE and Zulu capitals are fairly distant from Mansa's small holdings (one city on my continent, next to Mehmed, and two cities on a peninsula on the other continent), I think taking and keeping Mansa's cities is certainly possible.

However, here's a thought. If I let Mansa keep Kumbi (which is on my continent) and vassalize him... wouldn't Mehmed be tempted to DoW to take Kumbi?
Although, I suppose it's a moot point, as I'll probably have to conquer the Ottomans if I want a Domination victory anyways...


And, yes... I admit it, I usually try to befriend everyone. In fact, that's an ingredient of my habitual game plan - befriend everyone (and destroy the psychopaths if need be), and use the climate of world peace to maintain a technological and cultural lead.
Obviously, that can't work here. For once, I actually have to choose sides and create unrest and conflicts, which is something I've never had to do before. Thank you, Prince level, for bringing me into unexplored areas of the game (for me).
But I'll probably need advice on who to befriend, and who to wage a "cold war" against.
Usually, I've noticed that I never need to be nice to Mansa Musa, Pericles or Gandhi. These guys love trading so much, they'll trade with you even when relations are tense, therefore, I never make much of an effort with them.

I've also noticed that upping the game to Prince exposes another one of my flaws - I'm not much of a micro manager and, especially when I get involved in a project (a war or a building plan of some kind), I neglect the cities not involved and entirely forget about them.
That, for example, explains why I hadn't noticed that I could whip the courthouse in Cozumel, for example.

(Also note that I will be renaming Mayapan: it will become Tulum. Cozumel is the only real Maya island, but Tulum was a beach town next to Cozumel. Fits better than landlocked Mayapan. Just an idiosyncracy of mine, like making Lakam Ha the capital).

AnnRQuay said:

Excellent story! Looking foward to the next installment.

I must say I thoroughly approve of the idea that leaders should have to make a 'blood offering' before taking their nation to war. A Mayan custom long overdue for reviving IMHO - although personally I wouldn't allow Bush & Blair the 'earlobes' option...

Click to expand...

Yup, the Mayans did a lot of sacrificing. In the classical period, they did some human sacrifices, but mostly for very special occasions. Under most circumstances, the leaders and priests would perform "self-sacrifices" in bloodletting ceremonies for all sorts of causes. Mostly, of course, because some gods required blood - and why sacrifice your own people (or go through the trouble of acquiring captives) when the elite can spill their own blood more easily?
The best preserved Mayan mural painting, in Bonampak, depicts such ceremonies, among other things. If Chiapas is too far away, of course, there's an excellently made reproduction at Yale's Peabody Museum.
But, by the late post-classic, human sacrifices become more present, probably to thwart famines caused by overpopulation and massive deforestation - Yes, while most Mayan sites have been overtaken and heavily damaged by rapid jungle growth, it's almost certain that in the glory days of each site, you couldn't see a single tree on the horizon. Looters still do more damage, though, particularly in Ecuador, Belize, and Guatemala.)