Discussion about 1892-1919 in Europe

nokmirt

nokmirt

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I am trying to find information about the time period between (1892-1919) for my new World War One scenario. However, that is not the only reason. I enjoy discussing history and basically want to learn all I can about this time period.

One thing I would like to look into is how developed these countries were, and how they differ from each other at the outset of 1892. This could be put into terms, of military might, industry and production, economy and trade, anything useful.

When I build the map, I want to make it as authentic and as accurate as possible. BTW maps of this time period would be invaluable. Topographical maps, city locations, the names of cities at that time. Information on population and the size of the military, armies and navies, are also very important. Anything I can use would be of great help.

I was going to add Spain first. So, does anyone know the state of affairs in Spain during this time period. Anything on how the country was in 1892, would be especially useful. In terms of politics, religion, ideaologies, military, economy, social policy.

Diplomacy will also be very important. Who did they get along with and vice versa. What strategic and other resources did Spain have at the time. What resources/goods did they import and export. How developed were their cities.

In the meantime, I will be trying to research this as well. Thank you for posting anything you would like to discuss, or any information you have. I really do appreciate it. I figured if anyone knows you guys know. You discuss these kinds of things all the time. :)
 
Hey, I don't have any specific information for you - beyond what everybody knows, as a poor Russia - but I'm quite interested in this thread, in WWI, and found your mod really amazing and well-done. I'll check this thread aswell then, and will try to find some things about the civs during the week. :)

About the maps, there is an app for the Apple Products called History Maps, and I found it very very very interesting. In that app there are a lot of maps, specially from recent times. The oldest one I think is from 432, and they are of a great quality. If you want map sources, I would bet on that - just don't expect a huge europe map with every russian village :p
 
Petiscator said:
Hey, I don't have any specific information for you - beyond what everybody knows, as a poor Russia - but I'm quite interested in this thread, in WWI, and found your mod really amazing and well-done. I'll check this thread aswell then, and will try to find some things about the civs during the week. :)

About the maps, there is an app for the Apple Products called History Maps, and I found it very very very interesting. In that app there are a lot of maps, specially from recent times. The oldest one I think is from 432, and they are of a great quality. If you want map sources, I would bet on that - just don't expect a huge europe map with every russian village :p
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Well thank you Petiscator. And any help on info for the civs would be great. I will certainly look into that Apple Products History Maps app. The most important thing I need to do is to try to make sure the name and placement of cities are correct.

BTW, I some info on the Spanish navy in 1892. The article is here.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/es-navy-1890s.htm
 
If you haven't already, nokmirt, I would highly recommend playing El Justo's Age of Imperialism 1895-1924 for Civ 3. It is one of the best designed and researched scenarios on this site for any version of Civ. The civilopedia has a lot of depth, epscially in regards to major events, discoveries, and most of all naval development. EJ also focused on the Philippines in his studies so he may have some insight for you about 1890s Spain.

Good luck. I haven't played Civ 5 yet but your WWI game looks nice so far.
 
AnthonyBoscia said:
If you haven't already, nokmirt, I would highly recommend playing El Justo's Age of Imperialism 1895-1924 for Civ 3. It is one of the best designed and researched scenarios on this site for any version of Civ. The civilopedia has a lot of depth, epscially in regards to major events, discoveries, and most of all naval development. EJ also focused on the Philippines in his studies so he may have some insight for you about 1890s Spain.

Good luck. I haven't played Civ 5 yet but your WWI game looks nice so far.
Click to expand...

Actually, I have played that some time ago. That is a great idea to tell you the truth. I have talked to El Justo before, but that was like three years ago. If anyone knows this time period he does. I also have Civ 3 complete. I just have to download it. Thank you for the suggestion AnthonyBoscia.
 
Why 1892 out of curiosity?
 
Louis XXIV said:
Why 1892 out of curiosity?
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I chose this this year, because of the pact between Russia and France which was signed in 1891. This would be the beginning of the Entente against the Central Powers. The other thing was that I could take Egypt out of the game and have Alexandria and Cairo controlled by the British. Which they did in 1882.

Also, in 1892, the Saudi state was destroyed by their rivals, the Al Rashid of Ha'il, causing the Saudi leadership to go into exile. I will ad Al Rashid to the game. The reason for this is twofold. One is because of the map which I decided to adjust. North Africa, for instance, has a smaller area. By adding the Al Rasheed, I still have enough room to add their four main cities, including their capital at Ha'il. The Al Rasheed lasted from 1873-1921, so I feel they would make an interesting addition to my scenario. As time went on their relations with the Ottoman Empire became strained.

I am also planning on adding the Kabyle berbers in Algeria. Even though the French gradually moved inland to control more territory, the Kabyle still gave them stiff resistance. That was a long drawn out colonial war.

In Libya, I am going to add the Senussi political-religious order, a strongly nationalistic group of Sunni Muslims. This group resisted occupation of Libya by the Turks and the Italians.

The important turn of events, is the split of the hegenomy in Europe, between the new Entente and the Central Powers. This will be the main theme of the scenario. The rest of what I mentioned about North Africa is more for flavour, to make things interesting.
 
nokmirt said:
I chose this this year, because of the pact between Russia and France which was signed in 1891. This would be the beginning of the Entente against the Central Powers. The other thing was that I could take Egypt out of the game and have Alexandria and Cairo controlled by the British. Which as we know they did in 1882.
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Huh? The Franco-Russian Alliance was signed in 1894; the first draft of it was only tabled in 1892. But that wasn't the beginning of the Triple Entente, as an Anglo-German Alliance was still possible, especially during the Fashoda Incident of of 1898.
 
LightSpectra said:
Huh? The Franco-Russian Alliance was signed in 1894; the first draft of it was only tabled in 1892. But that wasn't the beginning of the Triple Entente, as an Anglo-German Alliance was still possible, especially during the Fashoda Incident of of 1898.
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That was when the final draft was signed. Which was January, 4, 1894. However, the alliance did begin in 1892, so 1892 is the year I will start the scenario. It ran from 1892 to 1917. Of all the choices I had thought of 1892 was the best fit. The number of turns in the game and other factors went in to my decision to start in 1892. There is more than just history involved, when designing something like this. Anyway, I am past that decision now and on to more important things.

Also, at the outset of this scenario, the Triple Entente is not even thought of. In this scenario there will still be a chance of Anglo-German cooperation. That is the beauty of it. I mean the main idea behind a scenario is the chance to change history. :)
 
nokmirt said:
I chose this this year, because of the pact between Russia and France which was signed in 1891. This would be the beginning of the Entente against the Central Powers. The other thing was that I could take Egypt out of the game and have Alexandria and Cairo controlled by the British. Which they did in 1882.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. Is this a Europe/Mediterranean map? The reason I was curious about the date is you mentioned starting with Spain. Obviously, the extent of Spanish territorial holdings changed dramatically a few years after this point.
 
Louis XXIV said:
Fair enough. Is this a Europe/Mediterranean map? The reason I was curious about the date is you mentioned starting with Spain. Obviously, the extent of Spanish territorial holdings changed dramatically a few years after this point.
Click to expand...

Yes it is a map of Europe/Mediterranean. Here is the map so you can take a look at it. I have been making some adustments since then. Right now I am working on mountain ranges and rivers.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11953133&postcount=40
 
The Beta for the Great War mod should be coming out soon. It is a mod for Napoleon Total War. That will also be a valuable source of information.
 
This sounds really interesting. If you're looking economic information I would recommend using The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers by Paul Kennedy. He tries to link economic developments to shifting geopolitical situations. A good portion of his book deals specifically with economic and imperial changes leading up to World War I. Hope that helps in some way
 
I never liked Kennedy's book. The whole thing seemed to me to chiefly be "macrohistory for dummies, as understood in the 1960s", and his habit of cherry-picking economic and military statistics didn't help, either. Kennedy's also part of that ancient tradition of English-language scholars who massively overstate the relevance and importance of the Anglo-German naval rivalry, which happens to be his primary area of emphasis, something that does not incline me to be charitable about the other stuff he talks about (e.g. the ostensible universal pretensions of the Habsburg monarchy or the reasons behind the ultimate British victory in the long secular Anglo-French struggle).
 
Icaria909 said:
This sounds really interesting. If you're looking economic information I would recommend using The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers by Paul Kennedy. He tries to link economic developments to shifting geopolitical situations. A good portion of his book deals specifically with economic and imperial changes leading up to World War I. Hope that helps in some way
Click to expand...

Thank you for the suggestion, it is not expensive. I can get it at the library and see what kind of info is in there. It is also like $7 for a new hard cover. Mostly I will use it for reference material, which is what I need.
 
Dachs said:
I never liked Kennedy's book. The whole thing seemed to me to chiefly be "macrohistory for dummies, as understood in the 1960s", and his habit of cherry-picking economic and military statistics didn't help, either. Kennedy's also part of that ancient tradition of English-language scholars who massively overstate the relevance and importance of the Anglo-German naval rivalry, which happens to be his primary area of emphasis, something that does not incline me to be charitable about the other stuff he talks about (e.g. the ostensible universal pretensions of the Habsburg monarchy or the reasons behind the ultimate British victory in the long secular Anglo-French struggle).
Click to expand...

Does it mention anything about the change in technology as time went on? When I take a look, I'll get back to you about it. I want to get a feel for how the various countries developed and why.
 
I remember reading a Horatio Hornblower book once and thought "where did the men who acted like this go?"

Then I realized that they all died in 1914-1918.
 
Kaitzilla said:
I remember reading a Horatio Hornblower book once and thought "where did the men who acted like this go?"

Then I realized that they all died in 1914-1918.
Click to expand...

Very good point. That is why I read mostly RN historical fiction. The Alan Lewrie series by Dewey Lambdin is one of my favorites. If you get a chance read him and Julian Stockwin.

Hotfix screwed up my scenario, so thats wonderful. After they finsh adding all new content to the game. Then I will finish my new scenario. What a pain these patches are. In the meantime I am going to concentrate on Victoria II. It's addictive.
 
This era is my favorite era in history as well, I think it culminates in the epic Great War, where the old mystical world turns modern. The war includes many ancient empires too (Ottoman empire, Habsburgs, Tzarist Russia) and in the end they are in ruins. Also the military technology makes giant leaps when comparing '14 and '18.

Loads of other world-shaping conflicts around that era, Russo-Japanese war, Sino-Japanese war, conflicts between Prussia, Austria, Italy, France, Ottomans etc etc. and imperial and colonial battles featuring America, Britain, Spain and other big powers.

A fascinating combination of idealism, imperialism, religion, rationalism, exploring and culture that interests me in those eras.

The era had also loads of legendary adventurers and eccentric heroes and anti-heroes, from Lawrence of Arabia and Lord Kitchener to Cecil Rhodes and Winston Churchill, to name a few British ones. Of course the era is colored with a certain dashing romantic vision of plucky adventure, which forgets the dullness and misery of many an ordinary folk that didn't have the possibilities to visit foregin parts of the world like we have today.


***

I think your Civ V scenario should include a Boer state either as a playable Civ or as a city-state at least. The Boer wars were the Vietnam war of that era, with behind-the-scense dabbling of German Empire. In Civ V terms they gifted loads of high tech weaponry and gained influence with the Boers.. ;)

nokmirt I higly recommend for you to check out Corto Maltese graphic novels by Hugo Pratt, it happens during those years, mostly during WW1 and around the globe. The stories cross points with the characters and personalities of that era and with real historical stuff, highly addictive..
 
Haig said:
This era is my favorite era in history as well, I think it culminates in the epic Great War, where the old mystical world turns modern. The war includes many ancient empires too (Ottoman empire, Habsburgs, Tzarist Russia) and in the end they are in ruins. Also the military technology makes giant leaps when comparing '14 and '18.

Loads of other world-shaping conflicts around that era, Russo-Japanese war, Sino-Japanese war, conflicts between Prussia, Austria, Italy, France, Ottomans etc etc. and imperial and colonial battles featuring America, Britain, Spain and other big powers.

A fascinating combination of idealism, imperialism, religion, rationalism, exploring and culture that interests me in those eras.

The era had also loads of legendary adventurers and eccentric heroes and anti-heroes, from Lawrence of Arabia and Lord Kitchener to Cecil Rhodes and Winston Churchill, to name a few British ones. Of course the era is colored with a certain dashing romantic vision of plucky adventure, which forgets the dullness and misery of many an ordinary folk that didn't have the possibilities to visit foregin parts of the world like we have today.


***

I think your Civ V scenario should include a Boer state either as a playable Civ or as a city-state at least. The Boer wars were the Vietnam war of that era, with behind-the-scense dabbling of German Empire. In Civ V terms they gifted loads of high tech weaponry and gained influence with the Boers.. ;)

nokmirt I higly recommend for you to check out Corto Maltese graphic novels by Hugo Pratt, it happens during those years, mostly during WW1 and around the globe. The stories cross points with the characters and personalities of that era and with real historical stuff, highly addictive..
Click to expand...

Thank you Haig for the suggestions and your feedback. I was thinking of actually creating a Boer War scenario. I am reading a book called Rags of Glory by Stuart Cloete. The book is not the easiest read, but highly fulfilling, because of its attention to detail.

Before I can do this I need some Boer units and a Khaki uniformed British infantry. Our unit makers surely could do this, I just have to request it.
 
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