Challenge-XVII-10

shulec

Grrrrr... I AM the force!
Hall of Fame Staff
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While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we are running a series of ten games called the Hall of Fame Challenge Series. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but your best submission meeting the settings of one of the games will be counted towards the Challenge.

(*) Please read the >> HOF rules << BEFORE playing!
(*) Games must be played using the >> BUFFY MOD 3.19.003 << or >>>BUFFY MOD 3.19.004b<<<.
(*) Games to be submitted via the >> Civ IV Hall of Fame Website <<
(*) New players, please >> register << using your CFC forum name

Settings:
  • Victory Condition: Conquest (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
  • Difficulty: Deity
  • Starting Era: Modern
  • Map Size: Standard
  • Speed: Quick
  • Map Type: Pangaea
  • Required: Aggressive AI
  • Must Not Be Checked: No Barbarians
  • Civ: Ottoman (Mehmed II)
  • Opponents: Must include America (Franklin Roosevelt), Ethiopia (Zara Yaqob), Germany (Frederick), India (Gandhi), Netherlands (Willem Van Oranje), Russia (Stalin)
  • Version: 3.19.003 or 3.19.004b
  • Date: 10th January to 10th June 2016
Must not play as Inca.
The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.
 
This is always more fun than it sounds. There was an epic battle years ago in a gauntlet (maybe someone can link to it) The game was won using fast workers as the game breaker. (not an option this time, but it should give you a hint: don't neglect roads.)
 
This is always more fun than it sounds. There was an epic battle years ago in a gauntlet (maybe someone can link to it) The game was won using fast workers as the game breaker. (not an option this time, but it should give you a hint: don't neglect roads.)

Your memory fails you. It is the exact same game! Challenge one, game 10.
 
Your memory fails you. It is the exact same game! Challenge one, game 10.

Memory did fail me, but there is another game I was thinking of. I'm sure it was a gauntlet because I know we had choice of leader and India (fast worker) really paid off.
 
With all we've learned over the last 6 years, this game should be winnable faster. My target is going to be 25 turns. To do that, or even to do 35 turns you need to be pushing hard to build everything in 1 turn. You don't have India's fast workers, so you must run serfdom for a refreshing change. That's 1t chop, 1t railroad, 1t pasture, 1t mine, 2t farms. Be careful with plantations. They're 2t, but forested-plantations are also 2t, so you get the chop for 0t.
edit: desert roads are also only 1t.

I want to point out one important thing to be fair to everyone. You should use BUFFY.003. They changed an important feature with build culture (after 10 years) because they considered it a bug (which it is but change it after 10 years?), but it really affects this super-short game.
In this game, you want to build culture the first turn to get borders to pop and still get the hammers. You can't afford to lose that turn.
 
I'd start with this and see if there's an optimization:

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1950 AD finish.

Thanks to killercane and WastinTime for their saves, which I studied before playing. I should have read this thread too (didn't think of it at first), because I would have conducted my conquest path differently if I had realized that getting the latter AIs to vassalize was complicated.

My map:
No need for MapFinder on this game. I just regened a couple times looking for something decent. I wanted oil nearby to build KC's quick tank to capture the first AI, if possible. I also wanted forests and enough grassland for the workshops, and a food resource of course. As it turned out, I'd say my map was close to ideal, for these reasons:
1. I settled all three cities in the NW corner along a river travelling SE, toward all the AIs.
2. I had lots of space, while four of the AIs were cramped far to the east. This limited their expansion.
3. Roosy was very close. For some reason, he's extra slow to settle, maybe because he wants Seal escorts. Both KC and I wiped him out with one capture.

A few mistakes:
I was a little late on several tactics, but not too late. I figured out that OrgRel+UnivSuff was for cash rushing missionaries in 1t a couple turns after I got Hinduism, but before I started the GA. My first GP was a few turns later than optimum, because it didn't occur to me how important that was till about T8 (same time I started cash-rushing the misses). My other strategic mistake was to not attack Zara much sooner (he was isolated from all the other AIs to the south of me). This was a mistake because it's easier to get late AIs to vassalize if you kill off some AIs completely.

Strategy points to add to what all of you have discussed:
1. Key strategy for fastest conquest: Every city builds all units/buildings in ONE TURN if possible.

Comment: This is not just about workers in 1t to allow growth. This is about a game in which it's over in 30 turns!?! If you have 30t*3 cities, that's 90 units/buildings max (unless you run Nationhood). That's not much stuff to win with.

2. Set your finish goal. (Mine was way faster than the best to-date... :))

3. Minimize everything.

Comment: This is the Gnejs Principle. Think twice before you build anything or do anything. Do you have time to build it? Will it help you finish faster? Is there another way to get what you want faster, cheaper or better?

For example, do I want to build a settler? Isn't it better to rush the first AI, if I want another production city? That kills two birds with one stone.

Do I need the Pentagon? Well, I'm going to spam my religion for the ORgRel production bonus anyway, so I could just get those 2XP from Theocracy. With Vassalage, I have 7XP. Most of my battles started with my tanks fighting with about 60-80% odds, giving 3XP. That means they were at 10XP with each win. They never got to 17XP. My conclusion: No Pentagon.

4. Run Serfdom the entire game. (!?)

Comment: I realized that my workshops simply didn't need the CS hammer. Far more important to me was the ability to build those railroads and chop those forests in 1t. Now, I didn't start as fast as Indiansmoke proposes, so I don't know if that would make a difference, but I doubt it, because the missing hammers before the cities mature could come from a couple of chops. In general, my production cities had some outrageous amount of hammer overflow non-stop. (So this is another example of thinking minimally.)

5. Buy maps asap.

Comment: Critical for capturing the first AI and for planning the overall campaign.

6. Move the three marine together straight toward your first target.

Comment: You're guessing at first, but their primary mission is to capture the nearest city, or at least some workers. Think about it. Those semi-useless marines have no other use in this game, other than garrisoning your cities. These also means that your two explorers have two early missions, scouting the land for your 2nd and 3rd cities and meeting your neighbors asap so you can buy maps and move your marines there. :rotfl:

7. Capital builds workers, 1 per turn, until you have the 5th developed tile for your 5th citizen.
8. Connect coal and oil asap.

Comments: At Quick speed, Modern Age, you want to be able to start building railroads yesterday. If you also want to build the quick tank (KC's gambit), you need the oil. In any case, when that tank is built on around T6-T7, it should arrive at your target's front door, by rail, in 1t, with the 3 marines already waiting. You need lots of workers for all that work.

9. Only build workers in your capital.

Comment: Your secondary cities immediately go RAX-factory-plant-levee. They don't get the BUreau production bonus. THey don't have time for anything else, except the 2-3 missionaries you cash rush.

10. Avoid battle defeats, and kill off AIs completely or vassalize them with minimal damage.

Comments: There seem to be two main factors in vassalization: power and losses. If the AI is small, you want to kill him off completely, if possible. Leaving him in the game lowers the average power of all players, making other AIs feel more powerful and less likely to vassalize. If your target is big with lots of power, then you want to harm him minimally but still get him to capitulate. That means attack his 20%/plains cities and try to not have a single loss. A few early airships are better than artillery, because they don't die (=defeat), but you need to have a city within range to base them there. I built a couple artillery instead, but luckily decided not to use them against Stalin (I didn't know the mechanics at that point--I was lucky).

Those are my observations.

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I also thought about the idea of spamming some GAs for instant cities, but I didn't think of it till T8 and it was too late. I did capture a city or two, fully equipped with factories/plants/levees and lots of people. It would mean sacrificing the Theocracy 2XP. That hurts, because those CRIII tanks were significantly better than the CRII. All in all, my guess is that when you start pulling the victory date back into the 20s, you're not thinking about new production cities. You're thinking about getting your 3 tanks per turn started sooner and optimizing your vassalization path.
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Iirc, my analysis of vassalization in the above post is only partially correct, codewise. I forget the mechanics of vassalization, but doesn't it have to do with accumulating a hard-coded 40 WarSuccess? Are there any other factors?

Most critical in this game, imo, is capturing the Rooster immediately and not wasting turns vassalizing.
 
40 war success yes. But also something like : they're power has to be below average. I'm sure it will come back to me. Or Pollina will show up and explain it off the top of her head.
 
You need twice their land or pop, and 1.5 times their power if land target, 3 times their power if not (I believe the resistsCapitulation XML value affects this part). Also 40 war success more than they have on you and they must be below avegare power.

I've never been entirely sure about how that last part works in practice. Is it below average power of all AI, or all civs including human player? Is it average power as in add up all power on the map and divide by amount of players?

Very interesting discussion here btw. Good with some tips, since most players (including me) probably wouldn't have any idea how to approach this.
 
Most critical in this game, imo, is capturing the Rooster immediately

I started a game that is going absolutely perfectly so far. I'm on T1:mischief:, so the the game is almost done :p
I have the choice right now to DoW Roos or Stalin on T7 with my Marines+1 tank. My question to you is : how immediate are you saying you would go for Roos? I'm thinking why risk failing my first city capture by going after Navy Seals. You'd go Stalin first, right? Then Roos with a bigger tank army.
 
I started a game that is going absolutely perfectly so far. I'm on T1:mischief:, so the the game is almost done :p
I have the choice right now to DoW Roos or Stalin on T7 with my Marines+1 tank. My question to you is : how immediate are you saying you would go for Roos? I'm thinking why risk failing my first city capture by going after Navy Seals. You'd go Stalin first, right? Then Roos with a bigger tank army.
Sounds like Roos has 2 units in the capital? I really don't remember any details vividly, but isn't the idea to catch it with only 1 defender? Oh wait, the idea is before he settles the 2nd city? I can't remember. I'm no help right now.

But yeah, your goal is to eliminate someone and get his capital asap. Doesn't really matter who. Roosevelt was convenient because he appeared to settle slower than the others.

Then again, does it really matter whether you eliminate the AI, just as long as you get the capital. Maybe it's better to get his second city asap also. Sounds like you might get 2 capitals quckly. Maybe that's better than building settlers.
 
Yea, I don't think I care if he settles a 2nd city. It'd be nice to have that city too, but also nice to eliminate him and move on.

I thought your comment which singled out Roos as an early target meant you were afraid of his Navy Seals. Maybe not, maybe you were just talking about your specific game which had Roos closest, so you wanted to get him out first.

I have OB, and next turn I'll know which city looks better to own, but I need to commit my marines this turn: east or west. I'm proud of what I did with the Marines on T0. Instead of spreading out wide to scout like I would normally do, I brought the western-most one east and the easternmost one west for exactly this situation on T1--having to choose a direction.

Pretty sure I'm going with Stalin, wish me luck.
 
Maybe it was Killercane, but someone discovered that Roos settles his second city slower than the others, making for a quicker elimination. Can't remember if that also meant fewer defenders in the capital. I guess it makes sense to eliminate Roos for the Seals early on as well.

Good luck!!! T25!!!
 
Duh, I just realized Roos will trade map. (your tip #5).
Dang, his capital looks good. Corn/coal/uranium/forests and on a river. (river = levee)
Tough call now.

P.S. in my brief test game the AIs had only 1 defender for a while. Probably not specific to Roos.
 
Duh, I just realized Roos will trade map. (your tip #5).
Dang, his capital looks good. Corn/coal/uranium/forests and on a river. (river = levee)
Tough call now.

P.S. in my brief test game the AIs had only 1 defender for a while. Probably not specific to Roos.
I don't think you care about losing a battle, since you're going to eliminate him anyway, just as long as you can capture in 1t.
 
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