Challenge-XVII-10

LowtherCastle · Feb 4, 2016

WastinTime said:
Makes sense cus we start w/ 4 marines less than the AI. However, aren't the important numbers: 114K and 189K ?
189K gives us 50% more power. So 7 more units (11 total)

Maybe I'm reading Pollina wrong. Are you saying the power modifier is on Power * 1.5, and since that is 1 for all but Gandhi, it's basicaly P*1.5?

My misreading was that that 1.5 was for GK and it was what varied with others.

Pollina · Feb 4, 2016

You need 1.5 times their power (if land target). "Their Power" is modified by the personality mod. That means the actual power ratio needs to be 1.5*1.5=2.25 for GK, 1.5*0.8=1.2 for Gandhi

LowtherCastle · Feb 4, 2016

WastinTime said:
IIRC, rax give power too. and probably stables. anything else?

Pop and some buildings will add trivial amounts of power:

(For BTS 3.17)
1000 soldiers- Trading Post, Shale Plant, Totem Pole
2000 soldiers- Walls, Dry Dock, Forge, Factory, Stable, Mint, Assembly Plant, Industrial Park, Levee, Dike
3000 soldiers- Dun, Barracks, Ikhanda, Citadel
4000 soldiers- Mt. Rushmore, Red Cross, Iron works, Ger, Statue of Zeus
6000 soldiers- Military Acadamy
8000 soldiers- Heroic Epic, Chichen Itza, Scotland Yard, West Point
10000 soldiers- Great Wall, Cristor Redentor, Moai Statues

LowtherCastle · Feb 6, 2016

WastinTime said:
I want everything I build to add to my power.

My latest thinking: Settle 3 cities by t2, one on oil, preferably capital. Nationhood gives 20K infantry, requires food tiles in each city. Many chops in each city for rapid tank production. DEADcapture 1 or preferably 2 AIs by ~t6, with 2-4 slaves. Victory between t10-15?

Not sure cities build anything other than (workers and) tanks.

ZPV · Feb 7, 2016

I've rolled some 10AI maps, just for fun. It's very silly to play, and probably not a viable strategy, but the idea is that you don't actually have to capture any more cities than a 6AI map because smaller AIs are easier to vassalise.

I've also (re-)learned a couple of things:
1) The initial AI marines won't capture your empty city if they have a nearby threatened city.
2) If an AI rushes/builds a unit the turn before you attack, it doesn't get to heal IBT.

WastinTime · Feb 8, 2016

submitted a 25 turn win. I didn't get any peace vassals and I didn't share borders enough to get easy capitulation.
One more try.

LowtherCastle · Feb 9, 2016

WastinTime said:
I didn't share borders enough to get easy capitulation.

I assume you're talking about this, right?

Pollina said:
- They won't agree to become a vassal if they have more than average power. ("We're doing fine on our own") A glance at the code shows that average power is total_power/civs_alive, so that includes us. It gets modified when they have a land target that is more powerful than them or when they are at war with a land target, which would make them more likely to vassal.

How much does it get modified? This is definitely something that could be factored in with relative ease in certain cases. I have one map I started (a few starts that I go a turn or three then save if I like them enough) with AIs on both sides of me. I could leave one for the end and just vassalize him as a land target.

Btw, not adding anything else because I'm away from my game computer for the week.

Pollina · Feb 9, 2016

Pollina said:
- We need 1.5 times their power. (A peace vassal deal requires us to have 3 times their power, unless they are our land target). Our power is reduced if another AI has more war success than us, but that shouldn't be an issue here. Edits: Our power is multiplied by 0.75 if we are their worst enemy. Their power is modified by the leader's iVassalPowerModifier (see leader XML, resulting multiplier ranges from 0.8 (Gandhi) to 1.5 (Genghis)). (Thx, WT) ("We're doing fine on our own")

FYI, I added the bolded part in my vassalization mechanics post. Another fact I had omitted.

LowtherCastle · Feb 9, 2016

Pollina said:
FYI, I added the bolded part in my vassalization mechanics post. Another fact I had omitted.

Ouch.

1.5 * 4/3 = 2

Might as well just assume our power will have to be 2X theirs. That makes land-target peace vassal more attractive, if possible.

WastinTime · Feb 9, 2016

I tried a game where I skipped factory, coal plant, missionaries and even some early workers since the plan was to get tanks out quicker and capture workers. fyi, I did build barracks cus it didn't delay my 1st tank.

Worker capture went well, but I didn't like the feel of the no-factory plan. You run out of forests and then the tanks don't keep coming. Although it was nice to get rid of all that unhealthiness.

I also didn't like the 3xp tanks so much. You lose too many of them.

Both are a big drain on your power.

LowtherCastle · Feb 16, 2016

Every time I capture someone by T5 I get two religions.

Not that it seems to matter. COme close to getting 2 single-city kills but no cigar.

ZPV · Feb 25, 2016

I've submitted an improved game, t23.
I killed one AI (Fred) with my marines, and got 5 workers from him.
My cities started producing 1upt on t9, 10, 11 and 12 respectively, although it was marines and artillery to start with (Gandhi settled my 3rd-ring oil).
Gandhi was a pushover, and I got 2 Russian cities on the first turn of that war, so I could ignore Stalin until he'd talk.
Zara peace-vassaled to me (after I bribed him to Pleased).

However, I need to reread the requirements for capitulation. I thought I'd done enough damage to the Netherlands, and sent my tanks back to Roosy, and then when he talked he wouldn't do it, and cost me a couple turns at the end.

LowtherCastle · Feb 25, 2016

5 wkrs is a fantastic haul from the first target! :goodjob:

Getting so many units per turn so early is also great.

I doubt I'm going to find any more time for this. To get this down into the teens, I think the best gambit will be gifting cities before DoW. The tricky part is having enough power to capitulate them without killing any of their units. We're talking about the final 2-4 AIs. Just gift them cities + workers (or scouts?), immediately recapture to get to 40 WarSuccess. All AIs will talk next turn except Roosie, who needs 2t, so he shouldn't come last.

Another catch is either having a city chain close enoughto the AIs for gifting or selecting AIs with 3 or fewer cities. Small map is critical for this strategy for that reason.

WastinTime · Feb 25, 2016

I do the 4 city gifts, but the key is having enough power to cap them. I think the trick there is to have them as a land target, so it's 1.5 power instead of 3x. I hope you'll at least submit your best effort LC instead of abandoning every game that doesn't beat the current #1 or doesn't achieve T19 win. It'd be nice to at least have your participation appear on the 'big board'

Pollina · Feb 25, 2016

Pretty sure the land target rule only applies to peace vassals. You will however need more than 1.5 times their power to capitulate them while you are their worst enemy (1.5*4/3). Relevant code:

Code:

		if (isAtWar(eTeam))
		{
			[...]

                        if (AI_getWorstEnemy() == eTeam)
			{
				iMasterPower *= 3;
				iMasterPower /= 4;
			}
		}
		else
		{
			if (!GET_TEAM(eTeam).AI_isLandTarget(getID()))
			{
				iMasterPower /= 2;
			}
		}

LowtherCastle · Feb 25, 2016

WastinTime said:
I do the 4 city gifts, but the key is having enough power to cap them. I think the trick there is to have them as a land target, so it's 1.5 power instead of 3x. I hope you'll at least submit your best effort LC instead of abandoning every game that doesn't beat the current #1 or doesn't achieve T19 win. It'd be nice to at least have your participation appear on the 'big board'

I haven't come close to finishing one yet and the chances of me trying again are slim because of RL, but I'll submit if I complete one.

@ZPV: One other detail that might occasionally help is using Build Culture for the third ring also. The opportunity usually comes pretty early, after about 25 :culture:

or so. Probably you're already doing that, especially if the oil was out there, but just in case. I tried to remember to do it with all my cities, especially ones up against AI pressure.

ZPV · Feb 25, 2016

Yes, I am already doing 3-rd ring build-culture (and even 4th-ring later on if I need the tiles to get land target or 2x an AI's land). It's quite helpful for blocking AI settling spots.

That's a cool idea for city gifts. I'm not sure I ever have 4 spare cities (except at the very end), but there's definitely something to play with. I think I'll still want to kill some AI units though, to get their power down.

LowtherCastle · Feb 25, 2016

2 cities + 5 separate workers = 40. You get the workers back the same turn and you have plenty of capture units toward the end from collecting power.

Theoretically, with 4 cities and 10 workers, you could do two AIs in 1 turn. I had a good setup going once until a couple of AIs managed to squeeze in their 4th city somewhere, but that was an attempt without any warring after the first AI.

I think you could get up to 200K per turn, with Nationhood and four cities.

LowtherCastle · Feb 25, 2016

My original idea was actually a t10 victory, but I don't see how to get the power that fast. Two DEAD by T5 is entirely conceivable, settling on oil for instant railroads. I"ve had 1 DEAD on t3.

WastinTime · Feb 25, 2016

LowtherCastle said:
I think you could get up to 200K per turn, with Nationhood and four cities.

don't forget you need size 6 to draft

Challenge-XVII-10

Deity

Emperor

Deity

Deity

Short for ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF

Deity

Deity

Emperor

Deity

Deity

Deity

Short for ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF

Deity

Deity

Emperor

Deity

Short for ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF

Deity

Deity

Deity

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