Caveman 2 Cosmos

I will leaave it like thaat for the time being then, on the other note : can I ask for a way to remove the Sacrificing mechanic altogether ? I am fine if it has to remove the gold rushing aswell.
It's irritating to open WB every few dozen turns and add population to AI cities manualy.

I think there's a boolean setting on the Worldview - Slavery that can be removed. Might as well do that for now until the AI can be improved.

BTW, Focused Traits was supposed to work fine with Developing Leaders so if it doesn't then something was left incomplete there. I don't use focused traits so Developing Leaders and Start without Positive is quite a nice combination to play with imo.

I dont like any of the options that take away from the default traits in C2C, i especially dont like ls612's at all, wish that was not even an option any longer. .

strategyonly said:

I dont like any of the options that take away from the default traits in C2C, i especially dont like ls612's at all, wish that was not even an option any longer. .

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What Are the Default Traits of C2C? Sgt. Slick's(Please say no, please)?

I've got pages of notes on his Traits and what his traits for each leader did over the base Leader Traits we had before his was put in. Want a Super duper Leader, Pick Hammurabi or Julius Caesar, can't go wrong with either one as they have virtually No downsides but plenty of Up. Or maybe you want to challenge your self, well then pick Charlemagne, Joao, Qin Shi Huang, or Victoria. They all have enough Malus to make them range from 155 to 175% Worse than Hammurabi or 140% to 160% worse than Julius in upkeep alone (iUpkeep Modifier).

You want extra Crime every turn from your Leader just pick Sitting Bull or Red Cloud both at +15/turn for every city you own (iirc).

Of the 68 Leaders I profiled only 11 had iUpkeep Modifier under a 100% increase. And Hammurabi is the only one that actually decreases the upkeep mod. 57 Other leaders give you a 100% to 170% Increase in Upkeep as well as other problems like Siting Bull and Red Cloud have (there are plenty other that add Crime per turn as well as these 2.

And then we have several that have a weird formula about crime that I never got a straight answer form Sgt Slick about. Goes something like this, for every Pop you have over 10 the current crime level you have is multiplied by -3/2Crime/turn and added back into the Crime total (I think, as I could never get a verification over it from anyone including Slick).

Another one for you, if you have an Aggressive Leader then once you let your Crime level hit 200 it adds +10 Crime/turn to every city you own. Ever wonder why TWs are built like crazy using the very Traits T-brd above says does a good job? (Not picking on you T-brd but glad you did chime in with an set that does back "some of this craziness" off somewhat.)

I wanted to build a chart years ago (but didn't know how) to show what changes were happening under Sgt's changes to Leader Traits. (Basically he wanted everyone to play C2C at the Deity level from Noble on up with minimum Gold for everyone including the AI.) But when I would come here and question what was going on I got cursed at by him. (Maybe some of you modders might remember that, maybe not. I was basically told to leave him alone.)

That is why for a long time now I won't check any Leader Trait Option boxes except for the occasional game with Focused Option by ls612. ls612 Knew what Slick was doing and disagreed with him over it too. So he built an Alternate set, Focused Traits. The very one you want to get rid of SO.

Edit: Sidenote on Crime and Hydro's implementation of it. Hydro (after SGT Slick added in the new Trait system) was doing all his testing for getting his crime values (for bldgs, Individual Crimes, and any other place he added crime to thru the Property system) and Gold Modifiers with Julius Caesar as his Leader. Julius only has a 15% increase in UPkeep modifier and a +60% increase in Trade iYield (1st iYield). So all his testing was unbalanced because he used the 2nd best Leader available.

JosEPh

SO asked me to stop working on traits mid-project and get back to the combat mod. Had I not, we'd have a suitable option and not ls612's BS or Slick's BS. Both are BS imo. Just sayin'. Slicks' is the default. And I was never able to complete my set or even begin to put it to xml. I have a spreadsheet still but I think I'd be able to come up with something a little softer than my original workup.

But again... not getting sidetracked until there's a break in the plans. Probably should get it done soon though.

As a side note, I did develop a lot of interesting new tags for my trait set and they never have been used.

Thunderbrd said:

SO asked me to stop working on traits mid-project and get back to the combat mod. Had I not, we'd have a suitable option and not ls612's BS or Slick's BS. Both are BS imo. Just sayin'. Slicks' is the default. And I was never able to complete my set or even begin to put it to xml. I have a spreadsheet still but I think I'd be able to come up with something a little softer than my original workup.

But again... not getting sidetracked until there's a break in the plans. Probably should get it done soon though.

As a side note, I did develop a lot of interesting new tags for my trait set and they never have been used.

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If you and I agree that the sets are BS and SO wants Focused removed, then maybe we need a consensus from the rest of the team to Start removing both sets of Leader traits and re-install the Original Leader Traits the Mod started with. Yes it will reduce the Leader's effects upon the Empire he leads. But it would remove so Much Overhead. And how many Game Options we could also removed to reduce that glut too. Some may call this idea unwanted/uneccessary fat trimming, but it's bad, bad fat that makes balancing the Mod so much harder to do.

JosEPh

I agree with Joseph. I don't play with traits anymore because it makes the game harder. I do love the idea of developing leaderheads (that was one of my favourite add-ons in c2c) but with the current set of traits it is boring since you alwayspick the same ones...

Thunderbrd said:

<snip>

BTW, Focused Traits was supposed to work fine with Developing Leaders so if it doesn't then something was left incomplete there. <snip>

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This I did not know. I thought it was Focused or none.

JosEPh

So do we need to then get RID of the negative traits altogether? And start afresh?

The fewer traps there are for players (new and old alike), the better.

JosEPh_II said:

If you and I agree that the sets are BS and SO wants Focused removed, then maybe we need a consensus from the rest of the team to Start removing both sets of Leader traits and re-install the Original Leader Traits the Mod started with. Yes it will reduce the Leader's effects upon the Empire he leads. But it would remove so Much Overhead. And how many Game Options we could also removed to reduce that glut too. Some may call this idea unwanted/uneccessary fat trimming, but it's bad, bad fat that makes balancing the Mod so much harder to do.

JosEPh

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Only the Focused Traits represents another set. The rest of the options are to appease differing opinions. Personally, if it were me, and we all wanted to reduce the number of options, I would make Start with no positives and developing leaders the only way to play. Most other mods with similar mechanisms did not try to make it optional and it worked fine for them. (FFH2) Or at least make it the default and turn them invisible.

To do so, however would require that the traits be structured properly to begin with.

I cannot say I think the original traits were much better. There were no negative traits at all and no negative qualities to positive traits nor positive qualities to negative traits.

That said, perhaps between the two of us (or anyone else here that cares) could perhaps have a more civil discussion that leads to implementing some hugely improved traits.

strategyonly said:

So do we need to then get RID of the negative traits altogether? And start afresh?

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I think my lengthy post clear shows where I stand. And my agreement with T-brd that both sets are "BS". And Faust agrees with me so.....4 already for some kind of change.

Now we need input from Toffer, DH, Sparth, alberts2 and any other team member that has not chimed in. Don't you think?\


JosEPh

JosEPh_II said:

And how many Game Options we could also removed to reduce that glut too.

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Don't forget the removing options breaks save games because which options are on/off is stored in a set of 1s and 0s in a single string. We can only set them and hide them. We can get rid of all the stuff activated by them though so that if people go into WB and change those options nothing will happen.

The one I would like to see worked on it the developing leader ones. I currently play with all traits off as that seems to give the AI better chance at survival. Although even then some don't expand while others do.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

The one I would like to see worked on it the developing leader ones. I currently play with all traits off as that seems to give the AI better chance at survival. Although even then some don't expand while others do.

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Where is that thread, pls??

JosEPh_II said:

I think my lengthy post clear shows where I stand. And my agreement with T-brd that both sets are "BS". And Faust agrees with me so.....4 already for some kind of change.
JosEPh

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Anything nowadays over 1 paragraph, i cant understand, sorry . . mind isnt what it used to be.. sorry

Also i understand about the re-work, fine, but only keep positive, or neg and pos??

What civ expand or not might have a connection to the settings in the leaderhead info. It would be interesting to know if there was a correlation, like there are the same 3 leaders that NEVER expand and then adjust them.

I agree with TB here: Developing leaders with no starting traits are the best way IMO. Of course, only when the traits are balanced well.

And I think c2c has a problem of being "too nice". We want to please everyone, so we keep things modular and I got the impression that everything TB does has to be completely optional. Some flexibility is good, but too much and it will be a monster with no chance of balancing properly.

We'd not have to remove them... Just turn off what we don't need.

I have to officially apologize at this point for stepping out of that arena and handing it all back over to ls612 and Sgt Slick to handle. Neither of them carried through to do the setup properly sadly.

I feel I should repost the old layout I designed initially to base further discussions on.

Thunderbrd said:

I feel I should repost the old layout I designed initially to base further discussions on.

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Pls do . . .

Dancing Hoskuld said:

Don't forget the removing options breaks save games because which options are on/off is stored in a set of 1s and 0s in a single string. We can only set them and hide them. We can get rid of all the stuff activated by them though so that if people go into WB and change those options nothing will happen.

The one I would like to see worked on it the developing leader ones. I currently play with all traits off as that seems to give the AI better chance at survival. Although even then some don't expand while others do.

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Your last statement is what I normally do too.

But even if that is the case (all traits Off) is SGT. Slicks traits the set that is defaulted to? Can someone definitively answer that? T-Brd? alberts2?

If so then that accounts for "that seems to give the AI better chance at survival. Although even then some don't expand while others do." Because his default set makes many leaders early game killers because of their Trait combo assigned to them.

The concept of Developing Leaders I have no problem with as a mod mechanic.

And either "set" (ls612 or Slick's) can be modified as a starting point. Or gong back to pre Slick C2C leader traits as the foundation to rebuild upon.

JosEPh

But even if that is the case (all traits Off) is SGT. Slicks traits the set that is defaulted to? Can someone definitively answer that? T-Brd? alberts2?

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I'm quite certain I've answered this question 3 times already (once today).

Yes. Sgt Slick's traits are the default.

strategyonly said:

Where is that thread, pls??

Anything nowadays over 1 paragraph, i cant understand, sorry . . mind isnt what it used to be.. sorry

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No idea. The developing leaders never get past the first level at the moment which is why I don't use it.

Faustmouse said:

What civ expand or not might have a connection to the settings in the leaderhead info. It would be interesting to know if there was a correlation, like there are the same 3 leaders that NEVER expand and then adjust them.

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The current game I am playing, with no traits, the Japanese, Vikings and Persians are not expanding even though both had room to do so. The Hittites have expanded right up to their borders now. However in previous games each of those nations/leaders have expanded.

Faustmouse said:

And I think c2c has a problem of being "too nice". We want to please everyone, so we keep things modular and I got the impression that everything TB does has to be completely optional. Some flexibility is good, but too much and it will be a monster with no chance of balancing properly.

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Probably my fault. I find combat tedious and boring most of the time. I also have a big problem with needing to keep track of large numbers of units. If crime, disease and pollution were optional or did not require units to combat then I would be more likely to not find combat a problem.