Inventions (Technical aspects)

In this thread, I'd like to discuss the technical aspect of the invention feature.
For the general ideas and the general approach, see here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=476044
If you want to discuss specific inventions, please look at this thread: (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=476046)

First of all, how is it going to work? In our colonies, we would have a new building (or rather a new production line), e.g. an inventor's house. When a colonist works in such building, he produces ideas. Ideas would be a new yield of course. With those ideas we would be able to obtain new inventions. And these inventions would unlock new units, new buildings or enable us to do something...
Here's a few questions we might discuss in this thread

A) Ideas / Inventions/ Inventor
1) First things first. Is that ok? Kailric's approach seems good to me. It isn't Civ4's approach (since in Civ4 you get some Commerce and Commerce can be "transformed" into research), and seems close to other Colonization features. Does someone want a more Civ4-like feature? Frankly I don't see how, but maybe someone has an idea

2) Dazio has raised a few interesting objections. One of his concerns (among many other...) was about the terminology. Should we really call our unit/profession "inventor". One of the inventions I used was called "Corn", another was "Native spirit" (I must thank you Kailric for the idea !). Europeans didn't invent Corn and they sure didn't invent Native spirit. This may not be the most important part of the discussion, but he was right. Does it make much sense to put a colonist inside a building in one of your colonies and you miraculously find the "Native spirit" invention. Anyhow, native "inventions" can be traded, but it may seem odd to obtain them from afar (I mean simply "staying" in your colonies)

3) Graphical aspects: Should we use Civ4 science icon, or Kailric's light-bulb icon for ideas?

B) Programming some features
When I tried to adapt Kailric's modcomp in my early (and unfinished!) Storm and Light, there was one major CTD. This CTD occurred when someone bought a Veteran (or tried to change a Veteran's profession) when the soldier profession was unavailable. Indeed soldier was Veterans default profession. In late game's, early era professions were no longer available (e.f. arquebusier in 1750) and were replaced by rifleman profession. However I had to keep the default profession just to avoid a CTD. Kailric's solution was a little different, since he replaced all units when a upgrade occurred. So he had early veterans, veterans ant late veterans (if I remember correctly...). Both solutions work, but seem a little awkward to me. Kailric's solution multiplies the number of units artificially and my solution leaves us with a few useless professions and might bother AI which is bad!

I'm not sure If this topic is open for outsiders, but if You don't mind I would like to share with You with my ideas

I like Civ4Col approach to create yields by colonists, but maybe you can go even further: lets make science/invention yield separately for each category (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=476046). Then there is no need for another building for inventor, you can reuse existing ones and feature called "multiple yields produced in buildings". In that case Armory could produce military points (and using guns and cannons - you know, new military tactics needs training and equipment ), tavern and dock could produce Economical Inventions points (using trade goods or something), town halls could produce Social Inventions points (no idea what could use ), churches of course religious invention points. Schools could be special building for all kind of invention points.

Pros:
- will be a little harder to make inventions, you will have to decide if you want to produce goods or Invention Points,
- more realistic - guy in armory actually working on new type of guns, while testing them has to use standard guns to rebuild them, and so on,
- can specialize in some category - there could be special professions (like master military inventor ) which will fasten some researches.
- "Inventors" units names could be more flexible - Native Historian, Religious Reformer, Armorer Experimenter, Philosopher and so on,

Cons:
- with good economy could be too easy: you can make multiple inventions in parallel.

What do You think?

mscibor said:

What do You think?

Click to expand...

Sorry, but I absolutely don't like that.

Reasons:

1. Implementation efforts. (We want to rebuild / reuse an existing implementation.)
2. AI needs to understand and use this feature.
3. Multiple Professions per Building with more than 2 Professions per Building gets ugly.
4. Performance of checking several yields (configured inXML) compared to one single.
5. This is not supposed to become a second "Founding Father System" but something not yet existant in CivCol.

I really prefer to have clean separate Profession / Specialist / Building / Logik / ...
(Everything else will probably get a veto from my side.)

Let us not make things more complicated than necessary.

About basic functionality:

New Profession, new Specialist, new Building, new Yield.

About terminology and graphics:

1. Let us talk about a something like "Thinker" instead of "Inventor".
(I know the term is not that good either.)

2. It should definitely be something like "Knowledge" instead of "Invention".

3. The lightbulb icon (from Kailric) is ok. Maybe somebody will come up with a better idea though.

Generally about implementation:

Generally we should have 2 big aspects:

A) Improving features / units / buildings / production / ... <-- should generally not be very dangerous
B) Unlocking features / units / buildings / production / ... <-- potentially very dangerous if not done very carefully

The things unlocked should be chosen very very carefully.
Lots of potential conflicts. (AI logic, Founding Fathers, Starting Units, ...)

Suggestions:

Let us first collect and filter the ideas.
It does not make a lot of sense to discuss details of how things should be implemented if we do not know what should be implemented.

If the general concept is easy / reasonable, then the technical concept will be, too.

raystuttgart said:

Sorry, but I absolutely don't like that.

Click to expand...

It's ok I really didn't thought about any technical issues

Yes, let's try to mostly stick to re-using Kailric's mod code to minimize time and effort for development. I think the possibility to unlock some professions / units / buildings gradually with research is still interesting and won't create big problems, however I wouldn't do as in 2071 where almost everything was unlockable - a few of the rare yields like Valuable Wood, Premium Fur, Spices etc could be learned about from Natives, and more advanced buildings could be constructable only with enough technology.

One interesting possibility is that you could start with access to a simple profession like Trapper who produces only one yield Fur; then after discovering advances get a better profession like Hunter who can produce both Fur and Food using MYP.

If we don't make multiple military professions that will simplify things, and military and naval research can unlock units and some interesting and powerful Promotions.

orlanth said:

I think the possibility to unlock some professions / units / buildings gradually with research is still interesting and won't create big problems, ...

Click to expand...

As I said,

* Unlocking Professions -> please let us forget about it
* Unlocking Units -> can be done, but we should do it very carefully
* Unlocking Buildings -> only higher levels of buildings with professions or buildings without professions

Seriously, let us forget about the professions.

You don't imagine in how many problems we could run. This could cause us CTD after CTD !
(AI logic, default professions, special cases where no profession available, ...)

Second I also really don't want to ruin AI.
Don't think that AI could handle this whole feature nearly as good as Human.

Third we should also think about performance.
Checking "Unlocked by Knowledge" every time professions are changed will really cost performance.

----------

Take a look at DLL and you will see why I don't want to touch this ...

Let us consider inventions as an addition and not as a feature that will totally dominate the mod.

mscibor said:

I'm not sure If this topic is open for outsiders, but if You don't mind I would like to share with You with my ideas

I like Civ4Col approach to create yields by colonists, but maybe you can go even further: lets make science/invention yield separately for each category (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=476046). Then there is no need for another building for inventor, you can reuse existing ones and feature called "multiple yields produced in buildings". In that case Armory could produce military points (and using guns and cannons - you know, new military tactics needs training and equipment ), tavern and dock could produce Economical Inventions points (using trade goods or something), town halls could produce Social Inventions points (no idea what could use ), churches of course religious invention points. Schools could be special building for all kind of invention points.

Pros:
- will be a little harder to make inventions, you will have to decide if you want to produce goods or Invention Points,
- more realistic - guy in armory actually working on new type of guns, while testing them has to use standard guns to rebuild them, and so on,
- can specialize in some category - there could be special professions (like master military inventor ) which will fasten some researches.
- "Inventors" units names could be more flexible - Native Historian, Religious Reformer, Armorer Experimenter, Philosopher and so on,

Cons:
- with good economy could be too easy: you can make multiple inventions in parallel.

What do You think?

Click to expand...

Hum... You're idea is interesting, but it seems very hard to implement. The programming part will cost us some efforts, and we would have to find more graphics for the new yields...
But as Orlanth said elsewhere we could try adding specific bonuses to a certain category of knowledge. Would you like that too?

raystuttgart said:

About basic functionality:

New Profession, new Specialist, new Building, new Yield.

About terminology and graphics:

1. Let us talk about a something like "Thinker" instead of "Inventor".
(I know the term is not that good either.)

2. It should definitely be something like "Knowledge" instead of "Invention".

3. The lightbulb icon (from Kailric) is ok. Maybe somebody will come up with a better idea though.

Click to expand...

Great!
1. Yes "Thinker" seems quite like it, and they probably used that word at that period of History.

2. Yes! Knowledge is a good term. "Invention" was not bad in my opinion, but "Technology" would be really anachronistic

raystuttgart said:

Generally about implementation:

Generally we should have 2 big aspects:

A) Improving features / units / buildings / production / ... <-- should generally not be very dangerous
B) Unlocking features / units / buildings / production / ... <-- potentially very dangerous if not done very carefully

The things unlocked should be chosen very very carefully.
Lots of potential conflicts. (AI logic, Founding Fathers, Starting Units, ...)

Click to expand...

Yes indeed.
B) is quite dangerous, and we'll have to be very careful !

raystuttgart said:

Suggestions:

Let us first collect and filter the ideas.
It does not make a lot of sense to discuss details of how things should be implemented if we do not know what should be implemented.

If the general concept is easy / reasonable, then the technical concept will be, too.

Click to expand...

OK !

orlanth said:

I think the possibility to unlock some professions / units / buildings gradually with research is still interesting and won't create big problems, however I wouldn't do as in 2071 where almost everything was unlockable - a few of the rare yields like Valuable Wood, Premium Fur, Spices etc could be learned about from Natives, and more advanced buildings could be constructable only with enough technology.

Click to expand...

Unlocking professions is the trickiest part. That's why Ray doesn't want to do it. I really think we can avoid the difficulty with graphical promotions... but let's see.
Yes indeed! Some things (units/buildings/promotions) should be unlockable but not all!

raystuttgart said:

Second I also really don't want to ruin AI.
Don't think that AI could handle this whole feature nearly as good as Human.

Third we should also think about performance.
Checking "Unlocked by Knowledge" every time professions are changed will really cost performance.

Click to expand...

Indeed you're right. We would avoid doing checks every turn. But how about the graphical promotions idea ?

Robert Surcouf said:

But how about the graphical promotions idea ?

Click to expand...

This will get massive amount of work for implementation in DLL and creation of the UnitArtStyles.

Why do we need to make this feature even more complicated ?

We could do this much more simple to have Advancement of Military Professions / Military Units by:

1. Directly giving modifiers for these Professions / Units
2. Giving free promotions

Guys seriously, let us not overexaggerate with this feature.
(No graphical changes, no profession changes.)

This feature is extremely big already ...
(And it is still far away from evolving from a general modcomp to a real feature.)

Hi,

raystuttgart said:

Why do we need to make this feature even more complicated ?

We could do this much more simple to have Advancement of Military Professions / Military Units by:

1. Directly giving modifiers for these Professions / Units
2. Giving free promotions

Click to expand...

I understand you crystal clear! The advancement of "living" Military units is very tricky. It is indeed easier to avoid locking/unlocking professions and/or changing graphics. I get your point...

BUT, I must say I'm puzzled. I guess we disagree
Having a unit with a rifle in 1492 already seems a little anachronistic and even unatmospheric. But that's ok (in Vanilla C4C, or in TAC). Having a unit with a rifle, and then earning the knowledge "Matchlock Musket" or "Arquebus", or whatever knowledge would be required to get the "Rifle" knowledge would be even more unatmospheric.

This feature (Advancement of Military Professions / Military Units)is the trickiest part, which means it's difficult to do it right. For me, not changing graphics could simply worsen the situation. (I've got units with rifles but I'll learn what a rifle is in 200 turns !!! )
For now, we know that from 1492 to 1800 soldiers didn't have the same weapons. But in Vanilla C4C (or even in TAC) that isn't bad, since there's no such thing as inventions/knowledge/weapon improvements. But here we will see ingame the evolution, but the graphics will not evolve.

All I can say, is that you might be right. We might have to avoid doing this. But if not doing this ruins the invention/knowledge feature, isn't that even worse?
Are you sure, we've thought this trough... Is there only three technical solutions (unlocking professions, artstyles or not doing anything) ?

Maybe, we can find an agreement. For now, I don't see any simple way to do this. So let's discuss the other aspects. If we find something better, than we do it, and if we don't find anything better, than we can simply do what you suggest.

Robert Surcouf said:

All I can say, is that you might be right. We might have to avoid doing this.

Click to expand...

I believe we need to.

Robert Surcouf said:

But if not doing this ruins the invention/knowledge feature, isn't that even worse?

Click to expand...

The alternative of ruining the mod is much worse for me.

Robert Surcouf said:

Are you sure, we've thought this trough... Is there only three technical solutions (unlocking professions, artstyles or not doing anything) ?

Click to expand...

No matter how you do it.
Introducing the massive amount of graphics you are talking about is incredibly problematic.
The other problem is the aspect of efforts and risk of bugs within the logic.

I cannot think of any solution.
(But maybe we will find somebody with a solution and willing and able to implement it.

Robert Surcouf said:

Maybe, we can find an agreement.

Click to expand...

This is not about agreement.
This is about being realistic.

I totally agree that having no graphical reflection of technological advances is not atmospheric.
But I think we could live with that.

Unlocking Professions (and using existing System of UnitArtStyles)

I promise you that this will cause us problems and efforts without end.
(Conflicts with default professions, performance problems because of massive amounts of checks, performance problems and efforts because of massive amount of new graphics, ...)

Changing Graphics with Promotions (and enhancing System of UnitArtStyles)

I promise you again, that this will cause problems and efforts without end.
(Massive amounts of efforts to adjust System of UnitArtStyles, performance problems because of massive amount of new graphics, ...)

----------

Remember, it is not only the Europeans that would need additional graphics, it is also the Natives.
All professions with guns involved would need to get additional graphics for every Nation ...

Who would even be willing do that ?
How could that be done without massive negative effects on performance ?

----------

I would bet with you that this feature will totally ruin our mod if we don't keep it simple.
(Bugs and Performance)

But if you say that you can implement this in a performant way and if you find a graphical modder that is willing to create all the UnitArtStyles needed, then I have no objections.

Please think about the implications again.

Summary:

I want the same as you.
I generally do not disagree with you and share your opinion about atmosphere.

I am just saying it cannot be done in a good way.
(Manpower of the team / efforts, risks, performance.)

I would rather loose some atmosphere / coolness than risk stability and performance of the complete mod.

I personally could not implement your wishes in a stable and performant way.
But maybe you or some other modder can.
(DLL logic and UnitArtStyles.)

I see 3 possible solutions:

1. Implement the feature as comparably easy and performant version. (No profession changes, no graphical changes through inventions.)
2. Find a programmer that can do these things in a way that will not ruin our mod and a graphical modder that is willing to create all the new graphics.
3. Give up the complete feature because we cannot do it in a way that is atmospherical enough.

Due to the graphical aspect I would prefer solution no. 3....

I cannot an will not implement all the graphic features for this feature.

Schmiddie said:

I cannot an will not implement all the graphic features for this feature.

Click to expand...

I fully understand that.
(It would be an awful lot of work.)

That is one reason why I want to do it without.

The feature is already extremely big without such things.

----------

We need to do this feature with avoiding

A) extremely complex logic (efforts and bugs)
B) massive amount of checks in logic that is called very often (performance DLL)
C) creation of too many graphics (efforts and performance graphics)

The only real alternative is to not do the feature at all !
(Generally I would like to have "Inventions" in our mod though.)

I'm quite unhappy with what this discussion is becoming.
@Ray: I'll send you a private message...

raystuttgart said:

I cannot think of any solution.
(But maybe we will find somebody with a solution and willing and able to implement it).

Click to expand...

That is the point of the brainstorming, isn't it?
As you said, you're not willing and you won't program the whole invention part. I can understand that...Again, I still have to check Kailric's work in detail.

raystuttgart said:

This is not about agreement.
This is about being realistic.

Click to expand...

Well...

raystuttgart said:

I totally agree that having no graphical reflection of technological advances is not atmospheric.

Click to expand...

That's my point...

raystuttgart said:

Unlocking Professions (and using existing System of UnitArtStyles)

I promise you that this will cause us problems and efforts without end.
(Conflicts with default professions, performance problems because of massive amounts of checks, performance problems and efforts because of massive amount of new graphics, ...)

Click to expand...

This is clear to me indeed... EXCEPT the graphic part. We don't need many graphics...

raystuttgart said:

Changing Graphics with Promotions (and enhancing System of UnitArtStyles)

I promise you again, that this will cause problems and efforts without end.
(Massive amounts of efforts to adjust System of UnitArtStyles, performance problems because of massive amount of new graphics, ...)

Click to expand...

I can only trust you with that... But we don't need many new graphics. Actually this would require less graphics than ONE new nation or even than ONE new European nation.

raystuttgart said:

Remember, it is not only the Europeans that would need additional graphics, it is also the Natives.
All professions with guns involved would need to get additional graphics for every Nation ...

Who would even be willing do that ?
How could that be done without massive negative effects on performance ?

Click to expand...

Not at all! I'm not considering any changes in the native professions. And it wouldn't bother me at all to have identical units for all European nations in early games (the actual professions are the "latest" professions). So the Artstyle part would be stay quite simple.

raystuttgart said:

But if you say that you can implement this in a performant way and if you find a graphical modder that is willing to create all the UnitArtStyles needed, then I have no objections.

Click to expand...

For me, thinks aren't completely obvious yet. I still have to check Kailric's work in detail...All I say I'm trying to discuss this. And yes I'm trying to find a efficient way to do this. And all I get is: you're efforts are useless (from you), and I don't want to help (from Schmiddie ) ...
Maybe you're right, maybe there isn't any ways to do this. But I'd like to find out by myself. I don't like abandoning things before even starting.

raystuttgart said:

I am just saying it cannot be done in a good way.
(Manpower of the team / efforts, risks, performance.)

I would rather loose some atmosphere / coolness than risk stability and performance of the complete mod.

Click to expand...

Of course !

raystuttgart said:

I personally could not implement your wishes in a stable and performant way.

Click to expand...

You already said you didn't want to do this !

raystuttgart said:

But maybe you or some other modder can.
(DLL logic and UnitArtStyles.)

Click to expand...

Maybe yes, maybe no.

raystuttgart said:

2. Find a programmer that can do these things in a way that will not ruin our mod and a graphical modder that is willing to create all the new graphics.

Click to expand...

If I count correctly we need 16 new graphical files.
I would like to start with 4 new professions:
Arquebusier, Mounted Arquebusier, Soldier, and Cavalry (we can change those names of course, it's just an example)
Each profession needs 2 nif files (one for regular units and one for veterans)
and 2 dds files. That means we only need 16 files, which is not much. And I believe I've already found them all (check my early Storm and Light...). Most of them are from Bts and some other mods...

@Schmiddie:

Schmiddie said:

Due to the graphical aspect I would prefer solution no. 3....

Click to expand...

The "graphical aspect" doesn't seem that hard to me

Schmiddie said:

I cannot an will not implement all the graphic features for this feature.

Click to expand...

That was harsh

I have to say I agree the graphical appearance is not of huge importance to me compared to the actual strategy and gameplay features. As we already have so many custom unit graphics, it would be quite an effort to add even more; I think that having interesting strategic gameplay features and choices is what matters most to players.

On the other hand, I do think having at least one or two non-graphical city professions unlock with knowledge would be really nice if possible. (For example, an advanced profession like Hunter producing 2 yields with MYP can become available with knowledge, when you could previously get only a single yield.) That type of unlock wouldn't need any graphics and is already implemented in Kailric's mod and my own 2071 (which used unlocks for almost all professions, probably too many in fact ) and did not cause performance or crash problems as far as I can find.

But anyway, I agree that changing lots more custom artstyles for every possibility of weapons changes could unfortunately cost far too much work and time compared to the benefits. I'm sure Ray and schmiddie aren't trying to be harsh: but unfortunately custom artstyles could actually require a lot more time and effort than Robert may realize because of all the numerous combinations of national and technologic artstyles. That could require lots of time compared to the cosmetic benefits, and we're already short of time and workers for this mod. Fortunately the current units look quite good, so for their specific weapons all that's needed is a little imagination from the players!

I think that nobody wants to be harsh.

All I want to say:

I cannot see how it is possible to reflect advancement in weapon technology by graphics without massive
amount of technical problems (bugs and performance) and massive efforts.

Robert Surcouf said:

Again, I still have to check Kailric's work in detail.

Click to expand...

Kailric's modcomp did never consider UnitArtStyles.
It was made for Vanilla which had simple Unit graphics.

Robert Surcouf said:

That's my point...

Click to expand...

As I said, we generally do not disagree with "What would be atmospheric.".
We only disagree "What can be done as a good implementation.".

Robert Surcouf said:

We don't need many graphics...

Click to expand...

We would.
Otherwise we would ruin the complete concept of UnitArtStyles.

Robert Surcouf said:

Not at all! I'm not considering any changes in the native professions.

Click to expand...

So armed Natives would always show the same weapons but armed Europeans would not.

Robert Surcouf said:

And it wouldn't bother me at all to have identical units for all European nations in early games (the actual professions are the "latest" professions).

Click to expand...

That is a nogo for me.
I cannot accept ruining the great concepts of UnitArtStyles and playing 2 thirds of the game without.

Robert Surcouf said:

All I say I'm trying to discuss this. And yes I'm trying to find a efficient way to do this.

Click to expand...

Ok.
Maybe you can show us that it is possible to do it without the problems I am talking about.

Robert Surcouf said:

You already said you didn't want to do this !

Click to expand...

I am really not especially fond of programming this and would really appreciate if you would like to implement the feature.
I simply don't want you to spend time in something that will fail.

Robert Surcouf said:

And all I get is: you're efforts are useless (from you), and I don't want to help (from Schmiddie ) ...

Click to expand...

Then you really misunderstand what myself and Schmiddie were trying to say.

We are both simply trying to say:
It is not possible to do that in a good / reasonable way.

And I have mentioned much more problems than only the efforts and impact of performance.

orlanth said:

I'm sure Ray and schmiddie aren't trying to be harsh: but unfortunately custom artstyles could actually require a lot more time and effort than Robert may realize because of all the numerous combinations of national and technologic artstyles. That could require lots of time compared to the cosmetic benefits, and we're already short of time and workers for this mod. Fortunately the current units look quite good, so for their specific weapons all that's needed is a little imagination from the players!

Click to expand...

Perfectly formulated.

raystuttgart said:

Kailric's modcomp did never consider UnitArtStyles.
It was made for Vanilla which had simple Unit graphics.

Click to expand...

I really don't see why UnitArtStyle would change much stuff in this case
Unitartsyles means you can get different graphics for the same unit. A frenc veteran soldier is slightly different from an english veteran soldier. (Actually the difference between native's unit is more significant thant with europeans...)

raystuttgart said:

Otherwise we would ruin the complete concept of UnitArtStyles.

Click to expand...

I don't understand at all
Without this feature, a unit has the same graphics for every nation. With UnitArtStyles we can give each nation a specific graphic, if we want to. If it's too much work to add new graphices for every nation, then I suggest we add one for every European nation.... Sounds logical, doesn't it ?

raystuttgart said:

So armed Natives would always show the same weapons but armed Europeans would not.

Click to expand...

Well... That's a good point... But I would rather live with that than do nothing

raystuttgart said:

That is a nogo for me.
I cannot accept ruining the great concepts of UnitArtStyles and playing 2 thirds of the game without.

Click to expand...

Without what? I don't understand... Let's say you pick Peter Stuyvesant as your Leader. Instead of just having (dutch) Veteran soldiers, you will have (European) Arquebusiers, (European) Soldiers and (Dutch) Riflemen. Isn't that an improvement? Of course if you meet some French or English Arquebusiers or Soldiers they will look like yours. Would that bother you? That would be strange.

[Usually one doesn't really admire the beauty of enemy soldiers. They might not be pretty, but pretty or not, there as good as dead to you ]
Really. I must be missing something

Schmiddie said:

I cannot an will not implement all the graphic features for this feature.

Click to expand...

Hm, maybe it was a little harsh,

I just wanted to make it clear that I would not do a lot of graphic work for this feature.

I cannot accept ruining the great concepts of UnitArtStyles and playing 2 thirds of the game without.

Click to expand...

I totally agree with Ray