Tile selection for founding a city

When you found a city on a given tile, you get bonus production compared to the terrain info for that tile before you founded the city. I couldn't find much info on how this works, none in Civ3 manual, so I experimented with starting up a game and producing settlers as fast as I could and founding new cities on different kinds of tiles. Here are my findings for what they are worth, all Civ3 and Despotism:

Founding a city on plain grassland , forest, hills, desert or jungle without water all give you 2-1-1 for the home tile in your city. I've wasted untold moves and given myself less than optimum city locations trying to avoid founding a city on a hills, desert, forest or jungle tile, thinking that would give me a weak production center for my city.

Grassland with water gives 2-1-2. Grassland with wheat and water still gives 2-1-2 and the wheat is wasted. Don't know if the food would increase when you get out of Despotism, which limits food production. Flood plain also gives you 2-1-2.

Grassland with spice and water gives 2-1-3 and you get the luxury. Grassland with the symbol but no water gives you 2-1-3. (This is a surprise because the manual says the symbol gives you an extra shield not an extra food.) Grassland with the symbol and water gives you the winner, 2-2-3.

Hills with gold gave 2-1-4...not too bad!

Enjoy!!!

the basic bonus for city squares in 2 food, 1 production and 1 money. extras are then added on top.

There's a good article in the War Academy section about starting locations - it includes the info that Killer pointed to in the FAQ, but goes into even more detail about where to start improving your first city.

http://www.civfanatics.com/doc/civ3/cracker/civ3_starts/

Eclectic & Farting Bob

You must be using earlier patches than 1.29f. I just tried it myself and the results are totally consistent with those in the FAQ per Killers post.

Specifically, and almost without exception, the city square when in despotism produces 2 food, one shield and three gold (i.e. 2,1,4 per the FAQ, with 4 reduced to three by despotism)

I was able to check all the common terrain and they all worked as advertised. The only terrain types that differed from the normal 2,1,3 (I admit I didn't check all the esoteric possibilities) were:

Plains plus cattle produces 2 food, 2 shields and 3 gold (independent of river location)

Hill plus gold produces 2 food, 1 shield and 4 gold, 5 if next to a river

I expect the only other exception to the 2,1,3 formula to be:

bonus grassland & cattle : 2,2,3

Basically, you'll only get more than the one shield if the tile is at 2 shield with NO terrain improvements, and with forest overlay ignored (i.e. consider the forest chopped down; regardless of whether it's grassland, bonus grassland or plains underneath the forest will make no difference, because you can't have the necessary cattle there)

You'll always get 3 gold, or 4 once out of despotism, unless the tile can produce more than that by itself. Since the basic gold value is 2 or 1, depending on rivers, since you get the road +1 bonus, only gold, at +4, or silks, at +3, have enough effect to matter. IOK, theoretically Uranium matters too )

So the only exceptions to 3/4 gold (despot/other) are:
silks next to river : 4/5 gold
gold not next to river : 4/5 gold
gold next to river 5/6 gold

NB Once you start revealing the strategic resources, those will muddy the water a bit. But most city siting goes on early on.

Gems?
Furs?

edit - gave wrong answer!
Edit - This table applies only to the first city founded

Gems don't matter because unless you mod the game they are only found on mountain tiles, which cannot be a city tile.

Furs do indeed have an effect, which I forgot - they give an extra shield.
Lets see if this summary table works....
ok, try again....



If that works, then the key is
bold for deviations from the norm
italics for completely wasted bonuses

I didnt bother with food bonuses, since they all get wasted

Gems, when they occur in jungle tiles, would behave just like gold resources and give 4 commerce, IMHO.

Park Ranger - yes, you're right, gems are like gold. doh.

I have Civ3 with 1.29f and the table is not correct for me. I re-read Lt. Killer's reference carefully and I think we have a difference between founding your capitol city and founding a non-capitol city. I have played a couple of games since this thread began and I can safely say that if you found a new city, Despotism, not a capital, on a plain, no-water, grassland, forest, hills, jungle or desert tile you get 2-1-1 which is the minimum, not 2-1-3 as per the table.

A second question that I have relative to Lt. Killer's reference link, is this: When you are going to found a new city, do you get anything extra if you have workers build a mine, irrigate, or build a road on the city center tile before you found the city? Does that depend on whether you are building your capitol city, or just a new non-capitol city? Judging by Lt. Killer's post on this thread, I take it that you can add a commerce by building a road but get nothing for a mine or irrigation.

Thank you all for your helpful comments.

This should really be in the strategies & tips forum. moved.

Eclectic - you are completely right. Rather than wander around building a city, I just checked a few old saves (doh, so obvious!) and your numbers seem right.

Which means that table is no good except for the capital it seems, and the FAQ needs a note added to it.no it doesn't, what needs to happen is for me to learn to read and/or think

edit - have I managed to confuse anyone else as much as I have confused myself? My apologies to any and all

Originally posted by Eclectic99
.... Here are my findings for what they are worth, all Civ3 and Despotism:

Founding a city on plain grassland , forest, hills, desert or jungle without water all give you 2-1-1 for the home tile in your city. ....

Grassland with water gives 2-1-2. Grassland with wheat and water still gives 2-1-2 and the wheat is wasted. Don't know if the food would increase when you get out of Despotism, which limits food production. Flood plain also gives you 2-1-2.

Grassland with spice and water gives 2-1-3 and you get the luxury. Grassland with the symbol but no water gives you 2-1-3. (This is a surprise because the manual says the symbol gives you an extra shield not an extra food.) Grassland with the symbol and water gives you the winner, 2-2-3.

Hills with gold gave 2-1-4...not too bad!

Click to expand...

OK, this time I paid attention to what I was doing, and made sure that all the cities were NOT capitals. I also put myself in Monarchy, so these are the full production values, not affected by the despot penalty. The full (and hopefully correct) table is below.

Note I have some differences to what Eclectic found. In particular:

Bonus grassland not next to a river is 2-1-1, as expected - he got 2-1-3, which I could not reproduce. (I'm assuming that's what he means by "symbol")
(You don't get the extra shield because the city minimum is 1, so it is wasted).
Similarly, bonus grassland with a river was 2-1-2, again as expected. I did not get the reported 2-2-3.In fact nothing I tried did that.
The only thing I can think of is that they were larger cities, but that doesn't ring true with any of the other results, nor his reported test. Odd. In fact, to be getting 3 commerce in despotism means it would jump to 4 when out of despot; so thats even more odd.

Apologies for any confusion created earlier.

(Oh, and entries for flood plain without river are correct - it was an edited map!)

not thorough enough to go through all those charts and the like (which are impressive in so far as the effort/time) however tile understanding seems to be really important in multi-player.
so here is the question.
What is the best tile to build ur first city on in a multi-player game? (best being defined as the overall highest in food/production...defense is not an issue in this question)

Should u build on a resource/luxery? (i build on any resource
regardless of any penalty-horse iron are too important early on)

Best tiles are gems (jungle) or gold (hill). Move the worker first, if you see one on the opening turn, by all means move the settler. The +4 gold will give you a huge early research bonus over everyone else. Gold and Gems are poor tiles to assign to citizens in the capital because they are always one or zero food, so to get the bonus build the city on the tile. Other luxuries may or may not be worth moving to build over depending on the details of the situation (see the chart )

Best bonuses to have in city area are game, cows or wheat (food means pop, means faster expansion). Building on top of a luxury is sometimes useful. Building on a river tile is a huge bonus (gold bonus and no aqueduct needed).

Originally posted by troytheface
not thorough enough to go through all those charts and the like (which are impressive in so far as the effort/time) however tile understanding seems to be really important in multi-player.
so here is the question.
What is the best tile to build ur first city on in a multi-player game? (best being defined as the overall highest in food/production...defense is not an issue in this question)

Click to expand...

Because you automatically get a min of 4 commerce from your first city, but not from any others, as I painfully discovered, you should NOT build your first city on any kind of bonus square:

You automatically get 2 food, whatever the square, so building on wheat etc is a waste.

You automatically get a min of one shield, so you may wish to consider not building on e.g. bonus grassland. Better to build on a regular grassland instead, where the min of 1 is actually an improvement. Not sure that's enought to justify a move.

The min for commerce pretty much beats out almost any luxury or bonus, with the exception of gold and gems. Since even then you are wasting the "4" minimum, you'd best move. Then you get the min of 4 in the centre tile PLUS the option to work the gems/gold tile for even more commerce.

Genms I'd be more tempted to move onto, if only because jungle is a swine to clear for working it. Even then, maybe I'd not waste a move to found on top of it, unless it were needed for another reason (river, etc?)

Just my 2c though - every one has their own reasons for tile selection.

So, if you take the current GOTM start position as a guide:
if you build where you begin, you get 2 food, 1 shield, 4 gold (-1 for despot, 3 net) plus a hill defence.

If you move onto the adjacent wine on a hill, you'll still get 2-1-4(net 3) - no improvement.

Even if it were gold you'd get 2-1-6 (net 5). A gain of 2 commerce, but you are giving up the potential of that tile for a citizen - and when you get into monarchy that will be a VERY powerful tile. I'd leave it alone and work it to get the benefit.

So you give up +2 gold per turn for the first 60 to 100 turns to get +4 gold (+5 with road) when Monarchy is discovered? This is a bad choice for multiplayer, in my opinion. A multiplayer game is often decided in the first 100 turns. A slow start and the game may be lost by the time the switch to Monarchy is made.

My bottom line: gems and gold it is a no brainer, it is worth two turns to move on to. Jungle gems will not be worked by the capital until very late in the game, and there is the added bonus of an instant luxury in the capital. River tile same deal, worth one or two turns to move to. A food bonus is worth moving to, so the tile is in the first city radius (not the expanded). Other bonuses are questionable, and may be worth a move or may not.
+ Bill

Originally posted by MadScot

Genms I'd be more tempted to move onto, if only because jungle is a swine to clear for working it. Even then, maybe I'd not waste a move to found on top of it, unless it were needed for another reason (river, etc?)
...

Even if it were gold you'd get 2-1-6 (net 5). A gain of 2 commerce, but you are giving up the potential of that tile for a citizen - and when you get into monarchy that will be a VERY powerful tile. I'd leave it alone and work it to get the benefit.

Click to expand...

If it's 2 moves away, I'd build the capitol where I was and let my first settler build on the gold/gems.