Brennus.Quigley
Warlord
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2011
- Messages
- 168
THE BENEFITS OF AVOIDING BRONZE WORKING
In a recent Strategy and Tips forum discussion about Serfdom, it came to my attention that I often times employ some techniques that are not well known. The reason my points were originally brought up in the Serfdom discussion is that I was making the case that sometimes I’ll get Feudalism before either Bronze Working or Code of Laws, thereby making Serfdom my first labor civic. The larger point, however, is that it can sometimes be advantageous to skip the entire metal tech path for awhile. Let me explain further.
1. BRONZE WORKING ADVANTAGES ARE NOT ALWAYS THAT ATTRACTIVE
All of the advantages of Bronze Working (Chopping, Slavery, Axemen, and access to the techs that are beyond it) are all map dependent. Granted, a lot of maps sync with Bronze Working, but not all. The less forest you have in your capital region or the less forest you want to chop (to keep their health benefits or you're plotting on a biology gambit for an early National Park), the less attractive chopping is. If you already have enough non-forested squares in your capital to improve and work, the less attractive chopping is. The less food surplus you have the less attractive slavery is. The more you want to grow your cities, the less attractive slavery is. If you are playing the default version of BTS with events on (i.e. slave revolts are possible), the less attractive slavery is. Axemen are also not always attractive. You could either find yourself in a peaceful situation where military units in general are not immediately needed, or you could conclude that you would be better off with a horse based army, an archer based army, an elephant based army, a catapult based army, or any combination thereof. Add to this the fact that you are not guaranteed to have either Copper or Iron at all. In addition, if you are not in a rush to explore the ocean, then optics is not really a priority. If you don't want to build the Colossus, then getting to Metal Casting early isn't a priority, etc. Of course, delaying Bronze Working for awhile does not mean that Chopping, Slavery, and the techs beyond it cannot be utilized later when the time is more appropriate, and when you may have higher populations (for more dramatic slavery surges), quicker chopping with serfdom (for more dramatic chop surges), and stronger units to surge out.
2. ALTERNATIVE TECH PATHS CAN BE MORE EFFICIENTLY ATTAINED BY AVOIDING BRONZE WORKING
If the tech that you want doesn't require Bronze Working, then it can most certainly be advantageous to avoid it. First, you won't have to expend any of your own research on the metals path. Second, your bulbing possibilities change when you forego the metal techs. While the Great Prophet and Great Artist bulb possibilities are not highly effected, the Great Engineer, Great Scientist, and Great Merchant bulbs are.
GREAT ENGINEER BULBS THAT BECOME AVAILABLE:
If one looks at the bulb tech order for Great Engineers, eliminates Bronze Working, everything after Bronze Working, and everything that requires Bronze Working, one will come up with the following list:
Mining
Feudalism
The Wheel
Masonry
Construction
Of note are Feudalism and Construction. So if you can pull off the Pyramids or Hanging Gardens (stone helps, and is a necessity on higher difficulty levels), you can use that first Great Engineer to bulb either one, with Feudalism being a personal favorite.
Feudalism Bulb: Early Vassalage, Serfdom, Longbows, access to Civil Service, and the ability to vassal a neighbor can be pretty good in some situations. The AI does seem to prefer this tech path, but bulbing it with an early Great Engineer will get you there well ahead of them (how many turns will depend on the difficulty level). Some situations where this may be ideal include: 1) if you are defending a hilled pass or you want to choke a neighbor with hilly terrain, early longbows fit the bill; 2) if you've boxed in a smaller AI and want to formerly vassalize them, a direct longbow rush on their capital should do the trick (you will want to be double their size and have them boxed in to make the capitulation stick). Longbows may no be the best units to rush, but they are certainly good enough to take out one or two cities, and that may be enough to get yourself an early vassal. And then if you do bulb Feudalism where do you go from there? If you're feeling peaceful you can get math and head up to Civil Service, although the fact that you've already attained a legal civic makes this not the most efficient path. If you have horses and want to get to Guilds for Knights, however, making sure your first 3 Great People are all Great Engineers can get you there quick. First bulb should be Feudalism. Then you should tech up to Metal Casting, chopping and slaving out forges in two cities. Run two engineers. Second bulb should be Machinery. Get Iron Working and avoid Mathematics. Third bulb can then be Guilds. Since Great Engineers take a while to generate, it helps to be Philosophical.
Construction Bulb: Since it only has about half the value of a full bulb, you will need to have a good reason to use a Great Engineer in this way. However, if you have elephants (and stone) and want to rush someone, researching Horse Back Riding and Mathematics while that first Great Engineer is being generated and then bulbing Construction can be a powerful play. You can then head over to Bronze Working and slave and chop out a bunch of War Elephants.
And, of course, rushing an early marble wonder can also be a strong move. It all depends on the specifics. But Bronze Working certainly isn't what facilitates that either. You got to get over to the appropriate tech that has nothing to do with Bronze Working.
GREAT SCIENTIST BULBS THAT BECOME AVAILABLE:
If one looks at the bulb tech order for Great Scientists, eliminates Bronze Working, everything after Bronze Working, and everything that requires Bronze Working, one will come up with the following list:
Writing
Mathematics
Education
The Wheel
Alphabet (BTS)
Philosophy
Paper
Aesthetics (BTS)
Sailing
Alphabet (Vanilla & Warlords)
Calendar
Liberalism
Agriculture
Masonry
The Education and Philosophy bulbs were already available (and are probably the most common Great Scientist bulbs). The Paper bulb is now there, but all you have to do for that is avoid one of the prerequisites for optics, not necessarily Bronze Working. What is of note, however, is that Liberalism is now much more easily bulbable. With Bronze Working you can get forced into Metal Casting, Iron Working, and Compass. All of those combined can be a significant distraction (1170 beakers, significantly more than Civil Service 800, Philosophy 800, or Paper 600). If you want to avoid Sailing and Calendar, you can bypass fishing as well, provided that you didn't start with it. That would have to make for the fastest path to being one turn away from Liberalism. Skip Bronze Working and skip Fishing. Some notes on this strategy: 1) The most powerful technologies that do not require Bronze Working are Military Tradition (Cuirassier rush), Constitution (further your scientific advantage), and Nationalism (Cultural victory). That makes them ideal and efficient technologies to snag with Liberalism while avoiding Bronze Working. 2) Since the Liberalism bulb is not a full bulb, you can use this technique to "lock" your Liberalism advantage in and then trade up the metal tech path to try to open up the tech that you want to get with Liberalism. If you want to Lib a tech that requires Bronze Working, delaying Bronze Working may not be a faster way to get there, but it will make it less likely that you lose the Liberalism race to an AI.
GREAT MERCHANT BULBS THAT BECOME AVAILABLE
If one looks at the bulb tech order for Great Merchants, eliminates Bronze Working, everything after Bronze Working, and everything that requires Bronze Working, one will come up with the following list:
Currency
Code of Laws
Mining
Constitution
The Wheel
Alphabet (BTS)
Pottery
Sailing
Paper
Monarchy
Civil Service
Agriculture
Writing
Mathematics
Mysticism
Priesthood
Divine Right
Nationalism
Calendar
Horseback Riding
Code of Laws is now available with a bulb (with Bronze Working you might be forced into Metal Casting). This may be attractive if Confucianism is still available, although there are more efficient ways to get to Code of Laws if that is your #1 priority. One such scenario where this might make sense if you invested into a Sailing/Great Lighthouse strategy and find yourself with a Great Merchant and Confucianism still available. You may also get a Great Merchant from the Temple of Artemis and find yourself in a similar situation. You need to either tech Currency or avoid both Alphabet and Mathematics for this to work. Sometimes isolated starts without Stone or Marble are ideal for both The Great Lighthouse and founding a religion. Utilizing this bulb may allow you to have both.
Civil Service is a high value bulb and Bureaucracy can be an early game priority. To get there as efficiently as possible, you will want to go (or start with) Agriculture, Mining, The Wheel, to Pottery, to Writing, to Mathematics, to Currency, to Code of Laws (not the Priesthood route). Caste System will open up that Great Merchant for you. If you don't have good seafood resources, avoid Fishing if possible, as that can block off Sailing. Avoid Priesthood and Monotheism, as that will block off Monarchy. Pick up Alphabet somehow. Avoiding Bronze Working is almost necessary to do this early on as Pottery is a requisite (although Pottery could be blocked off if you avoided both Agriculture and Fishing, assuming you have some Deer resources or Oases for early food. That would allow you to do this without avoiding Bronze Working, but still blocking off Metal Casting).
Nationalism is also more directly bulbable, although you would need to have a good reason to want to get there so quick. Having Bronze Working would force you into Metal Casting, Machinery
3. SOME COMMENTS ON TECH TRADING
Some experienced players reading the first version of this article have noted that not self-teching Bronze Working and "actively avoiding Bronze Working" are two different things. While they may be able to see the benefit of focusing one's early research elsewhere on the tech tree, they question the value of actively avoiding it since it can be picked up rather easily in a trade. First, depending on your path, there are lots of other non-Bronze Working technologies that you can trade for (Calendar, Construction, Monarchy, etc...) and possibly broker. Second, less trading with the AIs can sometimes be the better strategy. By trading with them, you are advancing them and, most importantly, guiding them up to the best spots on the tech tree. It can be better to let them meander trying to acquire all of the low level technologies with each other while you shoot up and guard one specific valuable tech path. Getting into a powerful position does not always come from accumulating all the technologies that exist, especially if that means you are helping the AIs do so as well. Instead, the goal for some types of maps is to get technological separation with AIs. I have personally noted a significant difference in the AI tech pace when I do and do not actively trade with them.
4. SOME COMMENTS ON FORESTS
Avoiding Bronze Working means that you cannot chop forests for a while. Most people think of late game benefits of forests (lumber mills, forest preserves, and the National Park) and decide that they come too late to be useful for them. However, forests have significant early game benefits as well, specifically health points to let you grow your cities and defensive bonuses to help you fight off invaders. Most people worry about invading forces using the forests for defensive purposes while they advance on your cities, but 1) forests cannot be pillaged, so don't worry about a stack actually hanging out in one; and 2) you can use it for defense even better than the invaders. The most important forest tiles for you to defend are the ones directly adjacent to your cities or the ones that are on a pass into your territory. Make a fort there, and fortify some of your own units there first.
Be aware though that if you are not chopping forests, they can spread. This can be good or bad. To avoid the bad, be sure to improve tiles next to forests that you don't want the forests to spread to. The good is that there will be more forests to chop mid-game if you avoid chopping them in the early game. Chopping is essentially a production surge. Surging out settlers, workers, or military units early on can make sense sometimes. But it can also make sense to delay your chopping surge until Education, and use those forests to surge out your 6 universities and Oxford as soon as possible. Or delay chopping those forests until Military Tradition or Gunpowder so that you can chop out some more advanced units.
5. UNLOCKING ONLY ONE LABOR CIVIC
There are three early labor civics available (Slavery, Caste System, and Serfdom). Unlocking only one and then continuing up the tech tree can be an efficient way to steer your research. Decide what type of civilization you are and then push yourself up the tech tree as far as you can. Note that the first technology that requires both Bronze Working and Feudalism is Guilds. The first technology that requires both Bronze Working and Code of Laws is Democracy. All three are required for Corporation. Before those three technologies, however, there is little need to double up on the labor civic technologies.
6. CONCLUSION
Bronze Working with its chopping, whipping, and (possible) Axemen is often times great early, just not all the time. If you want to get to any mid-tier technology that doesn't require it as soon as possible, you might be best off skipping it for a short or long while, depending on the specific situation. This can be true if you are going a peaceful science route (Constitution), a peaceful cultural route (Liberalism and Nationalism), or even a warmonger route (Military Tradition and/or Gunpowder). The overall point is that it is sometimes best to layoff the Bronze Working for awhile. Not only can it be good strategy, but your populations and forests will also be appreciative! Good times.
(Thanks to all those who provided helpful feedback on the first version of this article.)
Test Games:
So far two maps have been posted. Both generated a lot of discussion:
Delayed Bronze Working Map #1 (Immortal). Others did fine researching Bronze Working early.
Delayed Bronze Working Map #2 (Deity). Only the OP was able to beat the map via delaying Bronze Working.
In a recent Strategy and Tips forum discussion about Serfdom, it came to my attention that I often times employ some techniques that are not well known. The reason my points were originally brought up in the Serfdom discussion is that I was making the case that sometimes I’ll get Feudalism before either Bronze Working or Code of Laws, thereby making Serfdom my first labor civic. The larger point, however, is that it can sometimes be advantageous to skip the entire metal tech path for awhile. Let me explain further.
1. BRONZE WORKING ADVANTAGES ARE NOT ALWAYS THAT ATTRACTIVE
All of the advantages of Bronze Working (Chopping, Slavery, Axemen, and access to the techs that are beyond it) are all map dependent. Granted, a lot of maps sync with Bronze Working, but not all. The less forest you have in your capital region or the less forest you want to chop (to keep their health benefits or you're plotting on a biology gambit for an early National Park), the less attractive chopping is. If you already have enough non-forested squares in your capital to improve and work, the less attractive chopping is. The less food surplus you have the less attractive slavery is. The more you want to grow your cities, the less attractive slavery is. If you are playing the default version of BTS with events on (i.e. slave revolts are possible), the less attractive slavery is. Axemen are also not always attractive. You could either find yourself in a peaceful situation where military units in general are not immediately needed, or you could conclude that you would be better off with a horse based army, an archer based army, an elephant based army, a catapult based army, or any combination thereof. Add to this the fact that you are not guaranteed to have either Copper or Iron at all. In addition, if you are not in a rush to explore the ocean, then optics is not really a priority. If you don't want to build the Colossus, then getting to Metal Casting early isn't a priority, etc. Of course, delaying Bronze Working for awhile does not mean that Chopping, Slavery, and the techs beyond it cannot be utilized later when the time is more appropriate, and when you may have higher populations (for more dramatic slavery surges), quicker chopping with serfdom (for more dramatic chop surges), and stronger units to surge out.
2. ALTERNATIVE TECH PATHS CAN BE MORE EFFICIENTLY ATTAINED BY AVOIDING BRONZE WORKING
If the tech that you want doesn't require Bronze Working, then it can most certainly be advantageous to avoid it. First, you won't have to expend any of your own research on the metals path. Second, your bulbing possibilities change when you forego the metal techs. While the Great Prophet and Great Artist bulb possibilities are not highly effected, the Great Engineer, Great Scientist, and Great Merchant bulbs are.
GREAT ENGINEER BULBS THAT BECOME AVAILABLE:
If one looks at the bulb tech order for Great Engineers, eliminates Bronze Working, everything after Bronze Working, and everything that requires Bronze Working, one will come up with the following list:
Mining
Feudalism
The Wheel
Masonry
Construction
Of note are Feudalism and Construction. So if you can pull off the Pyramids or Hanging Gardens (stone helps, and is a necessity on higher difficulty levels), you can use that first Great Engineer to bulb either one, with Feudalism being a personal favorite.
Feudalism Bulb: Early Vassalage, Serfdom, Longbows, access to Civil Service, and the ability to vassal a neighbor can be pretty good in some situations. The AI does seem to prefer this tech path, but bulbing it with an early Great Engineer will get you there well ahead of them (how many turns will depend on the difficulty level). Some situations where this may be ideal include: 1) if you are defending a hilled pass or you want to choke a neighbor with hilly terrain, early longbows fit the bill; 2) if you've boxed in a smaller AI and want to formerly vassalize them, a direct longbow rush on their capital should do the trick (you will want to be double their size and have them boxed in to make the capitulation stick). Longbows may no be the best units to rush, but they are certainly good enough to take out one or two cities, and that may be enough to get yourself an early vassal. And then if you do bulb Feudalism where do you go from there? If you're feeling peaceful you can get math and head up to Civil Service, although the fact that you've already attained a legal civic makes this not the most efficient path. If you have horses and want to get to Guilds for Knights, however, making sure your first 3 Great People are all Great Engineers can get you there quick. First bulb should be Feudalism. Then you should tech up to Metal Casting, chopping and slaving out forges in two cities. Run two engineers. Second bulb should be Machinery. Get Iron Working and avoid Mathematics. Third bulb can then be Guilds. Since Great Engineers take a while to generate, it helps to be Philosophical.
Construction Bulb: Since it only has about half the value of a full bulb, you will need to have a good reason to use a Great Engineer in this way. However, if you have elephants (and stone) and want to rush someone, researching Horse Back Riding and Mathematics while that first Great Engineer is being generated and then bulbing Construction can be a powerful play. You can then head over to Bronze Working and slave and chop out a bunch of War Elephants.
And, of course, rushing an early marble wonder can also be a strong move. It all depends on the specifics. But Bronze Working certainly isn't what facilitates that either. You got to get over to the appropriate tech that has nothing to do with Bronze Working.
GREAT SCIENTIST BULBS THAT BECOME AVAILABLE:
If one looks at the bulb tech order for Great Scientists, eliminates Bronze Working, everything after Bronze Working, and everything that requires Bronze Working, one will come up with the following list:
Writing
Mathematics
Education
The Wheel
Alphabet (BTS)
Philosophy
Paper
Aesthetics (BTS)
Sailing
Alphabet (Vanilla & Warlords)
Calendar
Liberalism
Agriculture
Masonry
The Education and Philosophy bulbs were already available (and are probably the most common Great Scientist bulbs). The Paper bulb is now there, but all you have to do for that is avoid one of the prerequisites for optics, not necessarily Bronze Working. What is of note, however, is that Liberalism is now much more easily bulbable. With Bronze Working you can get forced into Metal Casting, Iron Working, and Compass. All of those combined can be a significant distraction (1170 beakers, significantly more than Civil Service 800, Philosophy 800, or Paper 600). If you want to avoid Sailing and Calendar, you can bypass fishing as well, provided that you didn't start with it. That would have to make for the fastest path to being one turn away from Liberalism. Skip Bronze Working and skip Fishing. Some notes on this strategy: 1) The most powerful technologies that do not require Bronze Working are Military Tradition (Cuirassier rush), Constitution (further your scientific advantage), and Nationalism (Cultural victory). That makes them ideal and efficient technologies to snag with Liberalism while avoiding Bronze Working. 2) Since the Liberalism bulb is not a full bulb, you can use this technique to "lock" your Liberalism advantage in and then trade up the metal tech path to try to open up the tech that you want to get with Liberalism. If you want to Lib a tech that requires Bronze Working, delaying Bronze Working may not be a faster way to get there, but it will make it less likely that you lose the Liberalism race to an AI.
GREAT MERCHANT BULBS THAT BECOME AVAILABLE
If one looks at the bulb tech order for Great Merchants, eliminates Bronze Working, everything after Bronze Working, and everything that requires Bronze Working, one will come up with the following list:
Currency
Code of Laws
Mining
Constitution
The Wheel
Alphabet (BTS)
Pottery
Sailing
Paper
Monarchy
Civil Service
Agriculture
Writing
Mathematics
Mysticism
Priesthood
Divine Right
Nationalism
Calendar
Horseback Riding
Code of Laws is now available with a bulb (with Bronze Working you might be forced into Metal Casting). This may be attractive if Confucianism is still available, although there are more efficient ways to get to Code of Laws if that is your #1 priority. One such scenario where this might make sense if you invested into a Sailing/Great Lighthouse strategy and find yourself with a Great Merchant and Confucianism still available. You may also get a Great Merchant from the Temple of Artemis and find yourself in a similar situation. You need to either tech Currency or avoid both Alphabet and Mathematics for this to work. Sometimes isolated starts without Stone or Marble are ideal for both The Great Lighthouse and founding a religion. Utilizing this bulb may allow you to have both.
Civil Service is a high value bulb and Bureaucracy can be an early game priority. To get there as efficiently as possible, you will want to go (or start with) Agriculture, Mining, The Wheel, to Pottery, to Writing, to Mathematics, to Currency, to Code of Laws (not the Priesthood route). Caste System will open up that Great Merchant for you. If you don't have good seafood resources, avoid Fishing if possible, as that can block off Sailing. Avoid Priesthood and Monotheism, as that will block off Monarchy. Pick up Alphabet somehow. Avoiding Bronze Working is almost necessary to do this early on as Pottery is a requisite (although Pottery could be blocked off if you avoided both Agriculture and Fishing, assuming you have some Deer resources or Oases for early food. That would allow you to do this without avoiding Bronze Working, but still blocking off Metal Casting).
Nationalism is also more directly bulbable, although you would need to have a good reason to want to get there so quick. Having Bronze Working would force you into Metal Casting, Machinery
3. SOME COMMENTS ON TECH TRADING
Some experienced players reading the first version of this article have noted that not self-teching Bronze Working and "actively avoiding Bronze Working" are two different things. While they may be able to see the benefit of focusing one's early research elsewhere on the tech tree, they question the value of actively avoiding it since it can be picked up rather easily in a trade. First, depending on your path, there are lots of other non-Bronze Working technologies that you can trade for (Calendar, Construction, Monarchy, etc...) and possibly broker. Second, less trading with the AIs can sometimes be the better strategy. By trading with them, you are advancing them and, most importantly, guiding them up to the best spots on the tech tree. It can be better to let them meander trying to acquire all of the low level technologies with each other while you shoot up and guard one specific valuable tech path. Getting into a powerful position does not always come from accumulating all the technologies that exist, especially if that means you are helping the AIs do so as well. Instead, the goal for some types of maps is to get technological separation with AIs. I have personally noted a significant difference in the AI tech pace when I do and do not actively trade with them.
4. SOME COMMENTS ON FORESTS
Avoiding Bronze Working means that you cannot chop forests for a while. Most people think of late game benefits of forests (lumber mills, forest preserves, and the National Park) and decide that they come too late to be useful for them. However, forests have significant early game benefits as well, specifically health points to let you grow your cities and defensive bonuses to help you fight off invaders. Most people worry about invading forces using the forests for defensive purposes while they advance on your cities, but 1) forests cannot be pillaged, so don't worry about a stack actually hanging out in one; and 2) you can use it for defense even better than the invaders. The most important forest tiles for you to defend are the ones directly adjacent to your cities or the ones that are on a pass into your territory. Make a fort there, and fortify some of your own units there first.
Be aware though that if you are not chopping forests, they can spread. This can be good or bad. To avoid the bad, be sure to improve tiles next to forests that you don't want the forests to spread to. The good is that there will be more forests to chop mid-game if you avoid chopping them in the early game. Chopping is essentially a production surge. Surging out settlers, workers, or military units early on can make sense sometimes. But it can also make sense to delay your chopping surge until Education, and use those forests to surge out your 6 universities and Oxford as soon as possible. Or delay chopping those forests until Military Tradition or Gunpowder so that you can chop out some more advanced units.
5. UNLOCKING ONLY ONE LABOR CIVIC
There are three early labor civics available (Slavery, Caste System, and Serfdom). Unlocking only one and then continuing up the tech tree can be an efficient way to steer your research. Decide what type of civilization you are and then push yourself up the tech tree as far as you can. Note that the first technology that requires both Bronze Working and Feudalism is Guilds. The first technology that requires both Bronze Working and Code of Laws is Democracy. All three are required for Corporation. Before those three technologies, however, there is little need to double up on the labor civic technologies.
6. CONCLUSION
Bronze Working with its chopping, whipping, and (possible) Axemen is often times great early, just not all the time. If you want to get to any mid-tier technology that doesn't require it as soon as possible, you might be best off skipping it for a short or long while, depending on the specific situation. This can be true if you are going a peaceful science route (Constitution), a peaceful cultural route (Liberalism and Nationalism), or even a warmonger route (Military Tradition and/or Gunpowder). The overall point is that it is sometimes best to layoff the Bronze Working for awhile. Not only can it be good strategy, but your populations and forests will also be appreciative! Good times.
(Thanks to all those who provided helpful feedback on the first version of this article.)
Test Games:
So far two maps have been posted. Both generated a lot of discussion:
Delayed Bronze Working Map #1 (Immortal). Others did fine researching Bronze Working early.
Delayed Bronze Working Map #2 (Deity). Only the OP was able to beat the map via delaying Bronze Working.