Favorite Warmongerer?

Who is your favorite Civ for war? I'd have to go with Mongolia, as the Keshik/Khan combo is so deadly and fun.

Songhai. Much harder to defend against, and when you've bulldozed everyone's expos you've got a highly profitable barbarian farm

Mongolia and Huns.

Mongolia because; Khan & Keshik combo is terrifyingly effective. It's like unstoppable storm and of course historical reason.

Hun because; Battering ram is insane and Horse archer can easily become mini Keshiks. Attack twice & move after attacking turns them superior power. Once in my Hunnic Campaing I had like 6 Horse Archers and their promotions were like;

Accuracy I
Accuracy II
Accuracy III
Barrage I
Barrage II
Barrage III
Logistics
Range
Cover I
Cover II

huns & mongolia are some of the most effective warmongers.

I find Zulu very powerful due to their 50% greater xp rate and cheaper units. Plus the buffolo promos are fun. Germany can be a fun novel one due to barb recruitement and 50% cheaper maintenace on them. So you can recruit up a big early army for free on large worlds without a huge gold hit. China is pretty popular due to the logistics crossbows but honestly the extra generals is not worth much. Paper maker is a good building though. I like the theme of Japan, strong wounded unit can make a difference. And for raiding, no one beats Denmark.

I like to play as Arabia. I love camel archers.

docbud said:

I like to play as Arabia. I love camel archers.

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Honestly, Camel Archer should try hard to catch Keshik. Which isn't so possible. They're really good but Keshik gets promotions far too fast. +1 attack, +1 range etc.

Btw, when you play as Mongolia, you most likely gonna open Honor, which means you gonna get Military Tradition which gives 50% more Experience from combat. Keshik also has Quick Study which gives 50% more Experience from combat by default.

That means, in a turn, you can gain 12exp as Keshik but no other unit can do such without get harmed.

And there is also Great Generals I

IkM said:

Honestly, Camel Archer should try hard to catch Keshik. Which isn't so possible. They're really good but Keshik gets promotions far too fast. +1 attack, +1 range etc.

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Very strongly disagree here, camel archers are stronger and IMO better. Keshiks are better for pretty specific conditions, like a big map and slow pace. Camels are better right when they come out and manage to hold their own through the entire game, Keshiks don't get better until having been around for an amount of time that isn't practical in many situations.

Both Keshik and Camelry are amazing and warrant XP farming on Chariot Archers to enable you to bolt out the starting blocks and destroy everything upon researching Chivalry. Bonus: ally with a Military CS to get some regular Knights who can keep up and capture. Arabia, send along a small train of foot troops to escort GGs without slowing down the assault.

Mongolia for Keshik (and Khan), Arabia for Camel Archer plus insane amounts of gold but both become obsolete when you need to upgrade (ranged promotions on melee units). Surprised at no mention for America, Minuteman when built with armory can have double cover and move as a scout which carries over as you upgrade them which means you have very tough and fast melee troops for the rest of the game

England for ship of the line, if a water map else longbows. Do like keshiks but I dislike the fact you loose the effect of most if not all promotions when you upgrade them. Never played as Arabia much maybe I should give camel archers a try?

I like the Huns for the battering rams but struggle to make them work at higher difficulties (too many enemy units around cities getting in the way).

inthesomeday said:

Very strongly disagree here, camel archers are stronger and IMO better. Keshiks are better for pretty specific conditions, like a big map and slow pace. Camels are better right when they come out and manage to hold their own through the entire game, Keshiks don't get better until having been around for an amount of time that isn't practical in many situations.

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Let's agree to disagree then.

Camels are much, much better than Keshik are because the difference in strength is just so huge. Kheshik struggle to even kill Riflemen.

The Keshik's range strength is 16. The Camel Archer's is 21. That strength difference is enormous.

Upgrading an Archer improves range strength from 7 to 11. That is a 4 point increase. The difference between the Keshik and the Camel Archer is 5, so there's an entire upgrade between the two.

Crossbows are significantly stronger than Keshiks are at 18 range strength, but Camels trump them easily.

Why is range strength so important? It not only determines how much damage you do, it also determines how much damage you take from other ranged units. Since you normally won't keep your Horse Archer units anywhere where they can be reached by melee the only way you will take damage is via Artillery or Longbows, something like that. Not only that, but Camels also have a better melee defense, meaning they won't die to two Knights or a single Lancer while Keshiks will.

Not only does range strength help do more damage when you get Chivalry and be more defensible, it also makes Camel Archers much more impactful. As I already mentioned Keshiks really fall off when the opposition gets to Riflemen. A fortified Rifleman on a hill with Drill promotion will easily take you three or four fully promoted Keshiks (so about 8 shots, maybe more) to kill. Camels on the other hand do well against Muskets, Rifle, Artillery and anything before GWB/GWI/Landships really!

You also have to take into account that a lot of the Keshik bonuses don't come from the unit itself, but rather from Mongolia. For example the +1 movement speed is not a Keshik bonus, it is part of the UA. The additional healing is part of the Khan UU, not of the Keshik.

Quick Study is amazing in combination with Honor, sure, but you don't have enough time to abuse it. On Deity the AI usually gets to Rifles really fast, the timeframe for Keshiks to be effective therefore is rather limited.

So really when comparing Camel Archers and Keshiks head-to-head, what do Keshiks even do better?

Camel Archer advantages:

2 more melee defense rating
5 more range strength

Keshik advantages:

Quick Study
Great Generals I

So you have to ask yourself: What is better, faster promotions and generals or a whopping 33% increase in damage and a decent increase in surviveability?

Both of the Keshik bonuses will not pay off until way later (Earlier Logistics and Range) when the unit is not even nearly as useful anymore.

Technically Keshiks would be much better by the time the Camel would get its 3rd upgrade, because Keshiks would already have Logistics and Range, right? But at this time the Keshik is hardly relevant anymore while the Camel will have already done significant damage and still remains dominant.

Oh God! Where should I start...

I'm wondering how you using Keshiks which makes them obsolete before you use them properly?

Mongolia is civ of war. You can do nothing but fight. Never make peace and Keshiks are getting 12 exp in a turn. Do you know what that means? In my current campaing I have just a few Keshiks and I send them to enemy lands, they attacked cities and pillaged tiles and enemy accepted peace in my terms and all these Keshiks have either Accuracy III or Barrage III one of them have Logistics already. And, that didn't take more than 15 turns.

If you believe Camel Archers are better than Keshiks sorry but you need to learn how to use them because you clearly don't know.

Btw, I'm not even mentioning how "Khan" makes them far superior to Camel Archers... Keshik can heal +25 in ENEMY LAND. But yeah, camel archers FTW!

Edit:

yung.carl.jung said:

You also have to take into account that a lot of the Keshik bonuses don't come from the unit itself, but rather from Mongolia. For example the +1 movement speed is not a Keshik bonus, it is part of the UA. The additional healing is part of the Khan UU, not of the Keshik.

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Not sure if I should laugh or be just sad because you keep talking like an expert with that mathematics but don't even know this... +1 movement is Keshik's bonus not Mongolia's. Because Keshik counting as Archer not cav.

Any veteran Civ 5 player pick Keshik over CA without think a sec. Wish you luck to find it out why.

Btw, I'm not even mentioning how "Khan" makes them far superior to Camel Archers... Keshik can heal +25 in ENEMY LAND. But yeah, camel archers FTW!

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That's khan's ability, nothing to do with keshiks. If you do the math correctly, you will know Camel archers are superior right out of the gate, and once they get logistics, except they earn xp slower. Also the healing in enemy land is pretty minor part as I usually don't even get any of them damaged since you can easily have blocker units soak city fire or any other units. Neither of them are weak to pikes anyway (these are ranged units not counted as mounted), so nothing to worry about.

When you play on deity and didn't start taking capitals with chariots, there is a chance keshiks will get obsolete before getting final capital and believe me they get destroyed when enemy has rifles or better units. Camels can push a little farther but not much.

My favorite warmongerer is myself, of course

If you believe Camel Archers are better than Keshiks sorry but you need to learn how to use them because you clearly don't know

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I, sir, find that offensive. Those are my people you speak of.

Sclb said:

That's khan's ability, nothing to do with keshiks. If you do the math correctly, you will know Camel archers are superior right out of the gate, and once they get logistics, except they earn xp slower. Also the healing in enemy land is pretty minor part as I usually don't even get any of them damaged since you can easily have blocker units soak city fire or any other units. Neither of them are weak to pikes anyway (these are ranged units not counted as mounted), so nothing to worry about.

When you play on deity and didn't start taking capitals with chariots, there is a chance keshiks will get obsolete before getting final capital and believe me they get destroyed when enemy has rifles or better units. Camels can push a little farther but not much.

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Of course it's Khan's ability, I already wrote that. That's designed for Keshik, same movement, heals Keshik in any tile no matter if it's enemy's or neutral and combat bonus. That's what makes Keshik superior to rest. Why do you think CA has better damage/defence? Because they don't have a support like Keshik gets. Khan completes Keshik and makes them far, far superior to any unit in entire game.

Sclb said:

When you play on deity and didn't start taking capitals with chariots

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You give me left side Honor, six Horses, and a CS whipping boy, and I'm taking a Deity capital or two before Chivalry, easy-peasy.

IkM said:

Oh God! Where should I start...

I'm wondering how you using Keshiks which makes them obsolete before you use them properly?

Mongolia is civ of war. You can do nothing but fight. Never make peace and Keshiks are getting 12 exp in a turn. Do you know what that means? In my current campaing I have just a few Keshiks and I send them to enemy lands, they attacked cities and pillaged tiles and enemy accepted peace in my terms and all these Keshiks have either Accuracy III or Barrage III one of them have Logistics already. And, that didn't take more than 15 turns.

If you believe Camel Archers are better than Keshiks sorry but you need to learn how to use them because you clearly don't know.

Btw, I'm not even mentioning how "Khan" makes them far superior to Camel Archers... Keshik can heal +25 in ENEMY LAND. But yeah, camel archers FTW!

Edit:


Not sure if I should laugh or be just sad because you keep talking like an expert with that mathematics but don't even know this... +1 movement is Keshik's bonus not Mongolia's. Because Keshik counting as Archer not cav.

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You really put in a lot of effort to say absolutely nothing.

Your poor (and embarrassing) ad hominems do not change the fact that you are objectively and mathematically incorrect. Camel Archers do more damage in virtually every scenario where both don't have logistics and obviously outdamage Keshiks when both have Logistics. They outdamage Keshiks right out of the gate, they outdamage them until Keshiks gain Logistics and then they outdamage again after they get logistics. The healing, which as Sclb said is not even part of the Keshik's bonuses is completely negligible. Both Camels and Keshiks never have to take any sort of damage if you use them with roads and blocker units.

I would love to have you explain to me how Keshiks get 12 exp per turn though, how about that? A ranged attack will give you 2 exp. With Military Tradition (+50%) and the Keshik bonus (+50%) that's 4 exp. Even with Logistics that is still 8 exp, not 12 exp.

You don't like numbers all that much, do you?

IkM said:

Any veteran Civ 5 player pick Keshik over CA without think a sec. Wish you luck to find it out why.

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Not only are there singleplayer veterans itt that disagree with you (no, I am not talking about myself), the entire multiplayer community pretty much unanimously agreed that Camels are by far the strongest UU in the game.

Anyway, have a nice day, friend

IkM said:

Oh God! Where should I start...

I'm wondering how you using Keshiks which makes them obsolete before you use them properly?

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By using them in some sort of competitive setting, either higher level SP or MP. In higher level SP, in my experience anyway, unless I do some sort of eschew-education all-in chivalry rush, the AI will usually have muskets by the time I'd get Knights. And even as Mongols, unless you start in medieval or something, it's totally impractical to hope to click chivalry at game start and be able to keep up in anything. Keshiks have a limited area of about adjacent empires only in terms of a conquest, and by the time they get to past one empire or so the enemy will always have units capable of beating them, usually muskets in SP due to AI failure to use crossbows well. Of course, camels can easily best muskets, and usually rifles if you keep them around long enough-- a much easier feat for camels than keshiks, considering the muuuuch better survivability camels provide. And as to crossbows, which will be what stops and decimates keshiks in multi, camels make easy mincemeat.

Mongolia is civ of war. You can do nothing but fight. Never make peace and Keshiks are getting 12 exp in a turn. Do you know what that means? In my current campaing I have just a few Keshiks and I send them to enemy lands, they attacked cities and pillaged tiles and enemy accepted peace in my terms and all these Keshiks have either Accuracy III or Barrage III one of them have Logistics already. And, that didn't take more than 15 turns.

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"Never make peace" is a strategy that is viable only in a pretty narrow game setting-- one with lower level AI and a single landmass, on single player. On deity, or even really immortal, by the time you try to do some sort of knight rush you'll be trudging through carpets of muskets. And for keshiks, which die when slammed by a few pikemen, it's really not practical to survive consistently through this kind of warfare, especially long enough to become better than a camel archer. And on multiplayer, people slow you down and make you irrelevant with this kind of war. However, camel archers, with their much greater raw strength, will be able not only to thin these crowds very easily, but they'll be able to withstand the slams and shots that will focus fire them (MP) or overwhelm Keshiks (SP).

If you believe Camel Archers are better than Keshiks sorry but you need to learn how to use them because you clearly don't know.

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If you believe Keshiks are better than Camel Archers sorry but you need to learn how to use them because you clearly don't know.
(Copy and paste)

Btw, I'm not even mentioning how "Khan" makes them far superior to Camel Archers... Keshik can heal +25 in ENEMY LAND. But yeah, camel archers FTW!

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And to heal you're not shooting, and not shooting gets you killed by units that ARE shooting.

I'd give answer to all your post one by one but you're just giving answer for keeping your pride alive. lmao.

You definitely don't know what Keshik army can do. I played many games on Immortal on deity and no, no one can make you carpet, unless you're a noob. Btw, what's this obsession with muskets? lol.

Anyway, you say CA can best Muskets with 21 range but Keshiks can't with 15 + numerous promotion? Well, if you believe this, not just about Keshik, you don't know anything about how game works.

Why do you think Keshik has this low range attack? because it turns insane power in really SHORT TIME. when CA hits enemy with 21, Keshik hits over 30 (+1 Attack and should I add +1 Range? like bombarding cities 3 tiles away...) What logic makes you think CA is better than Keshik? That's really hard to understand...