Ecopop - The next contraversial Vote made in Switzerland

Grisu · Oct 17, 2014

A good month from now, the swiss people will decide on the popular initiative called Ecopop.

Earlier this year, we made the news with the new immigration limits that stand in conflict with the previously agreed upon bilateral treaties with the EU.

Now comes an even more extreme push:

The initiative demands, that the increase of the permanent population of Switzerland due to immigration over three years must not exceed 0.2% per year.

Given the current population that would be roughly 16000 immigrants per year. At the moment the number is more around 90000.

As a new twist, they try to sell the whole deal as inspirated by the wish for a more eco-friendly societey..

this time not even the SVP would support the initiative (though the AUNS does - the AUNS pretty much being to the SVP being what the Tea Party is to the GOP), so chances are small that this gets through, but even so it looks like a sizeable chunk of the population will vote in favour of it :/

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/immigration-caps-to-reduce-ecological-footprint/40598374

Kyriakos · Oct 17, 2014

Surely this is all due to worries about being eco-friendly, what with the euro garbage trying to emigrate to Switzerland :mischief:

Quackers · Oct 17, 2014

I gain more and more respect for Switzerland every time I read about their initiatives. They are like the opposite of Sweden/UK. Marvelous.

Grisu · Oct 17, 2014

Quackers said:
I gain more and more respect for Switzerland every time I read about their initiatives. They are like the opposite of Sweden/UK. Marvelous.

Even if you leave the whole immigration issue aside, the thing is incredibly stupid as it would utterly cripple our economy. The main problem probably is that some people will think exactly like that. "Oh, I don't really like all that immigration, so I guess I'm gonna vote yes" without looking closer what such a vote would mean in detail.

Oh, and before you admire us too much, per capita, there are a lot more immigrants to Switzerland than to Sweden or the UK (by a lot, actually). So in order to become like us, the UK should first triple their net immigration

Quackers · Oct 17, 2014

Grisu said:
Even if you leave the whole immigration issue aside, the thing is incredibly stupid as it would utterly cripple our economy. The main problem probably is that some people will think exactly like that. "Oh, I don't really like all that immigration, so I guess I'm gonna vote yes" without looking closer what such a vote would mean in detail.

How so?

Oh, and before you admire us too much, per capita, there are a lot more immigrants to Switzerland than to Sweden or the UK (by a lot, actually). So in order to become like us, the UK should first triple their net immigration

Hmm I was flagrantly displaying my ignorance there :lol:

At least Switzerland listens to its population. We are just patronised by the political class. UKIP is our only outlet at the moment.

Tahuti · Oct 17, 2014

Switzerland should become a Habsburg fiefdom again.

bhsup · Oct 17, 2014

This will never work. You'll just get a flood of illegal aliens that will hide in your numerous minarets that dot your landscape.

Grisu · Oct 17, 2014

Quackers said:
How so?

First of all it would be the finishing blow to our treaties with the EU. There's no way they will keep them after that. But seeing where you come from, I guess you don't accept that as a valid argument

The other part is that our economy depends on a large part on immigration, since there's no way we could adequately fill their positions with local people exclusively, companies (especially the larger, international ones) would find it hard hiring new ones...The logical conclusion to that for them would be to move away from Switzerland.

Hmm I was flagrantly displaying my ignorance there
At least Switzerland listens to its population. We are just patronised by the political class. UKIP is our only outlet at the moment.

Well, I guess so, I just wish the outcome was different

bhsup said:
This will never work. You'll just get a flood of illegal aliens that will hide in your numerous minarets that dot your landscape.

All four of them? that'll provide room for millions of them :run:

Traitorfish · Oct 17, 2014

I note that you specify "permanent population". Does that imply that the shortfall in labour is expected to made up with temporary or seasonal migrants, or does it simply mean "permanent" in the sense of "not tourists"?

Domen · Oct 17, 2014

As a new twist, they try to sell the whole deal as inspirated by the wish for a more eco-friendly society.

So are they claiming that immigrants don't know how to throw rubbish into dustbins?

Oh, and before you admire us too much, per capita, there are a lot more immigrants to Switzerland than to Sweden or the UK (by a lot, actually). So in order to become like us, the UK should first triple their net immigration

The difference is that Swiss immigrants come mostly from the 1st to 2nd Worlds while Swedish mostly from the 3rd World. Switzerland and Germany were the two main destinations of emigrants from former Yugoslavia, IIRC.

Grisu · Oct 17, 2014

Traitorfish said:
I note that you specify "permanent population". Does that imply that the shortfall in labour is expected to made up with temporary or seasonal migrants, or does it simply mean "permanent" in the sense of "not tourists"?

well that's what we did in the past...today, "ständige wohnbevölkerung" as stated in the initiative means every swiss living here, as well as every foreigner with a long term permit (more than 12 months) or with short term permits that are more than 12 months cumulated.... so I guess, yes they might try that (and hiring more cross-border commuters), but I hardly think that would be effective (hiring people for less than 12 months). that might work in the construction business, etc. but certainly not in high-skill industries.

Borachio · Oct 17, 2014

I fully expected this to be about an eco-friendly version of Eurovision.

So...

I now don't have a clue what to write.

But, yeah, immigration! When will the nightmare stop? Maybe when conditions around the world are more nearly equitable? And why shouldn't they be? Don't people in the US have rights to the same standard of living as people in... er... the Congo? (sic)

Grisu · Oct 17, 2014

Borachio said:
I fully expected this to be about an eco-friendly version of Eurovision.

So...

That's about the only thing I can think of that would be worse than this initiative

Domen · Oct 17, 2014

Don't people in the US have rights to the same standard of living as people in... er... the Congo? (sic)

According to some opinions Kinshasa indeed has similar standard of living as Detroit.

warpus · Oct 17, 2014

OP, do you think this is one of the dangers of having a system in which the majority of the population can push forward ideas like this and have referendums on them?

How binding would this referendum be btw? (It's a referendum, right?)

Grisu · Oct 17, 2014

warpus said:
OP, do you think this is one of the dangers of having a system in which the majority of the population can push forward ideas like this and have referendums on them?

How binding would this referendum be btw? (It's a referendum, right?)

It is indeed one of the dangers of such a system. but a risk I'm willing to take.So far there have been very few truly stupid decisions, so I think our track record isn't worse than your average parliamentary system.

It's a popular initative, not a referendum, so it would be written into the constitution...so pretty binding

warpus · Oct 17, 2014

It seems to me that this whole system you guys have set up of popular referendums on various topics is what is going to in the end be a major roadblock when it comes time to join the EU. I mean, I know that's not in the plans or anything, but at some point it might be. But then how do you prevent people voting for ideas that are incompatible with EU charters and regulations or whatever?

If your constitution is at odds with EU laws it seems that there would be huge problems, in a hypothetical scenario in let's say 20 years, at which time Switzerland is a part of the EU.

Or I suppose your system could be changed to accommodate all that? It seems that certain things wouldn't be allowed to be voted on during referendums - for example a reinstitution of slavery. That would go against human rights, so it'd be superseded by another article in the constitution or another one of your laws. Right? Or are there no checks in places like that either?

Borachio · Oct 17, 2014

Wut? You think there's a real possibility that Switzerland will join the EU inside 20 years?

I can't see it happening in 200 years.

Switzerland has been an outlier since... dunno... C14th? Maybe longer.

Ooh! 1291!

Kyriakos · Oct 17, 2014

Why would Switzerland join?

They will be a lake in the 500 current million of people in the EU.

They will kiss their democracy goodbye.

I hope the EU itself won't be around in 5-10 years...

warpus · Oct 17, 2014

Borachio said:
Wut? You think there's a real possibility that Switzerland will join the EU inside 20 years?

I can't see it happening in 200 years.

Switzerland has been an outlier since... dunno... C14th? Maybe longer.

Ooh! 1291!

I don't think there is a chance of them joining anytime soon, but the EU is essentially just a bunch of political and economic treaties. Switzerland is a signatory to many of those treaties - just not all of them.

It's not such a far reach, it's in their benefit to remain close to the rest of Europe. That's what they've been doing, while at the same time attempting to retain their neutrality.

I'm just presenting a hypothetical future scenario, during which they end up as members, and wondering about the implications.

Ecopop - The next contraversial Vote made in Switzerland

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