Viability of Ancient/Classical Wonders on Deity

adjust those number upwards if you play Egypt, and/or take the Tradition bonus, the Pantheon bonus, and have marble in your territory.

edit: Ive only lost oracle after about turn 90 on deity (on average, some extraordinary exceptions do happen though). ive never lost Pyramids on deity when I go for it. i just dont go for it all the time. ive never gotten Hanging Gardens or Stonehenge. Ive never tried for ToA, Colossus, or Zeus on deity. Petra is maybe 10% of the time attainable. Ive only gotten GLib on deity with extreme luck, and maybe reloads.

Assuming: Continetns (Med/Large), standard speed, Deity

Great Lighthouse - 5 - regularly get it as England, requires beelining the tech. On water heavy maps you can lose it easily to the likes of Venice.

Stonehenge - 3- have gotten it with forests/salt or otherwise good hammer start. Must complete before turn 32-33

Oracle - 10 - (complete it before turn 88). If the Maya are in the game it becomes a 4 (complete before turn 60). On rare occasions i've seen it even earlier.

Great Library - 0 - you can only get it on Deity with extreme luck and sacrifices. ie. you steal an enemy worker pre turn 5, you have lots of salt/forests, barbarians/aggressors stall other wonder mongers. Goes around turn 30-31

Parthenon - 1 - requires specific (detrimental) beelining and luck with terrain and enemy civs to obtain. Have only gotten it once or twice with salt.

Temple of Artemis - 3 - i have gotten it a surprising amount of times to be honest. Requires a good start - gems on jungle, marble/stone on grasslands, salt etc. Usually goes by turn 35, but you can get lucky sometimes it can get delayed.

Hanging Gardens - 1 for most civilizations, but 9 for Babylon. I frequently beeline it as babs. You can get lucky and get it because sometimes it is delayed severely. Depends on your enemies and their chosen tech.

Petra - same as above, with a twist. If the enemy doesn't have a good production city near a desert tile, it can be as late as turn 95. Desert civs like Morocco/Egypt/Arabia will nab it extremely quicklyhowever. Playing as Babylon is your only secure chance to get it.

Pyramids - 10 - pretty easy to secure, rarely lost.

Mausoleum of Halicarnassus - 4.5 - A bit easier to get than ToA. The AI still likes to get it, but it usually is the last to go out of the tier 1 tech wonders. If the enemy doesn't have a capital near the required resources it goes much later. Note that if you build it you will be denied Stone Circles immediately by the AI. Same like if you go Goddess of Festivals you are immediately denied Monasteries by the AI. I have still gotten it reliably with a good grassland stone/marble start.

Terracotta Army - 1 I never beeline it but the AIs complete it around the time I'm thinking about attacking with comp. bows so it goes pretty darn fast. Probably easier to get as Babylon

Great Wall - same as above

Statue of Zeus - purely depends on how many warmongers you have. Attila, Genghis, Alex and Monty like getting it since they frequently open Honor. If none of the Ais open with Honor you can reliably get it. So either a 2 or a 10.

Colossus - 3 Love it as Venice and Portugal. Hard to get without good dirt/chopping. Much easier for Babylon again, but you are expected to rush HG as babs and by the time you make it back to the tech for the Colossus it's already too late.

Nice numbers M&L! I am in my first Deity game now, and got the Hanging Gardens. I think I was the only civ to pursue Tradition, so it was just luck. I almost never got it in my Immortal games!

beetle said:

Nice numbers M&L! I am in my first Deity game now, and got the Hanging Gardens. I think I was the only civ to pursue Tradition, so it was just luck. I almost never got it in my Immortal games!

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Most definitely it was luck. A severely delayed HG because of social policy choice. You probably played on a smaller map thus had fewer opponents. The bigger the map, the harder it gets because more potenital rivals appear. The opposite of religion, since smalelr maps make it nigh on impossible to get one on Deity, but I can reliably get one on Large continents (talking about non faith focused civs.)

HG was indeed late. It is a standard map, usual number of opponents. I missed out on a religion despite trying, so that hurts, particularly as I am Sweden and loose the most convenient GP type for CS gifting. Map has a couple more oddities as I hardly had any tundra, and there is an ocean in center of the pangea.

My contribution for which I tried : standard/OCC

Oracle : 7/8 (depend if Pacal/Elisabeth or Ramses are in)
Great Library : 1/1
Temple of Artemis : 2 / 7
Hanging Gardens : 2 / 7
Petra : 5 / 5 (because if I have Petra start, I try unless Morocco or Arabia are on the map)
Pyramids : 8 / never tried on OCC

Key wonders are in a way easier on OCC because you'll need ToA/HG/Petra to skyrocket, you need only 1 or 2 workers and you don't build settlers (free hammers and growth).

Great Lighthouse - unlikely, and well, you don't really have the time yourself
Stonehenge - possible, maybe you can chop forests to speed it up, otherwise unlikely
Oracle - depends on the map, I've seen it go at turn 60 once
Great Library - impossible, the only way you can build this is Emperor or lower
Parthenon - I never notice it tbqh
Temple of Artemis - highly unlikely, you can try and rush it but it will detour you a bit
Hanging Gardens - possible with some luck
Petra - very possible if you play it well
Pyramids - actually, this one is more possible than what you may think, because I don't really see the AI going Liberty much
Mausoleum of Halicarnassus - possible I'd say but I don't pay attention
Terracotta Army - wouldn't go far as to call this one useless still, but I never ever built it
Great Wall - A bit of a detour if you're going to hit Education by turn 100
Statue of Zeus - This is the one that requires might? It's very possible because nobody really goes Might
Colossus - if there's a lot of coast, don't count on it

I don't give a hoot for their viability. I put my hammers into archer production, and then I go and shake the pinatas of Wonders the AI have made for me.

lindsay40k said:

I don't give a hoot for their viability. I put my hammers into archer production, and then I go and shake the pinatas of Wonders the AI have made for me.

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Yeah I'd like to see some videos of you doing that on Deity. Half the time the terrain itself will screw you over completely.

Myth and Legend said:

Yeah I'd like to see some videos of you doing that on Deity. Half the time the terrain itself will screw you over completely.

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I play on Marathon, XP farming powers up your units faster than research & upgrade. Give me a City State whipping boy, four range & logistics bow units, and one imported Horse, and I'm taking the Great Wall without laying down Citadels.

Well Marathon makes sense. On Standard by the time you whittle down the enemy's standing army they get pikes with cover II and Knights.

The only wonders I've gotten in Ancient/Classical are the Oracle, Great Lighthouse, Hanging Gardens, Petra, and Statue of Zeus.

Most are viable if you beeline the techs, with the exceptions of the Great Library, Parthenon, and Stonehenge (possible, but very unlikely).

However more importantly, I simply think that most of the early wonders are not desirable on Deity. The only ones I typically consider building are the Oracle (usually in my second city, if it has good growth/production) and Hanging Gardens if it gets left late (which seems to be happening more frequently since the latest patch). In certain situations based on the start I might go for Great Lighthouse (if I will need to war with frigates and have 4+ sea resources) and of course Petra.

For all the others, I'd simply rather have the equivalent production in archers, settlers, and infrastructure. Better to take than make.

Most early wonders are obtainable on deity if you beeline the tech, chop hard and focus build order, or get a little luck.

Luck can be counted as popping a tech from a ruin and not being up against wonder-greedy ai like Egypt or Korea.

Assuming no ruin tech pop and no wonder-greedy ai, on a scale of 0 meaning no shot and 10 it can be got every time:

Great Lighthouse 4
Stonehenge 5
Oracle 9
Great Library 0
Parthenon 0
Temple of Artemis 5
Hanging Gardens 6
Petra 6
Pyramids 8
Mausoleum of Halicarnassus 7
Terracotta Army 2
Great Wall 0
Statue of Zeus 6
Colossus 5

That's 9/14 are a 50% chance or better.

The hardest wonders on deity to build are in the early mid-game. Chichzen Itza, Hagia Sophia, Borobudor and Alhambra are all near impossible, if not.

The hardest wonders on deity to build are in the early mid-game. Chichzen Itza, Hagia Sophia, Borobudor and Alhambra are all near impossible, if not.

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This is very much true but it depends on when you got your NC up. If you can finish it before T80 then they are certainly possible if you manage to tech fast enough. But I don't find them to be as influential on the game as the earlier ones. I rarely go for the theology wonders, and while Chichen Itza would be extremely nice for someone like Darius, you probably have other priorities in the cap such as guilds.

Myth and Legend said:

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This might be a silly question, so I apologize if I'm missing something obvious, but why are some of the wonder easier to get as Babylon? I can't think of anything in their uniques that helps with building wonders. Unless it's the free GS from Writing allowing you to reach the tech needed for the wonder in question faster and therefore start building it earlier?

LoneRebel said:

Unless it's the free GS from Writing allowing you to reach the tech needed for the wonder in question faster and therefore start building it earlier?

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It is that plus the fact that, as Babs, you are working the tech quite differently (to get the GS ASAP) than you would usually. Early game, the player is still behind the AIs for the count in number of techs, but as Babs part of the tree will be at parity. So there is more opportunity for some Wonders.

As a diety player, I don't really ever try for wonders outside of Porcelain and Hubble. They are nice when the timing works out (enter Industrial with over 1,000 faith and liberty completed but not rationalism yet, and something like Brandenburg is available), but other than that, you're better off ignoring them completely.

Veering off of the tech path (lux -> NC -> civil service -> universities -> workshops -> public schools -> Oxford radio -> labs) and wasting hammers only to risk losing the wonder one turn before it's completed is a huge setback. Instead, you should be focusing your hammers on necessities that can never be taken away. Granaries, workers, settlers, NC, monuments, shrines, markets, national wonders, universities, workshops, etc.

I can't tell you how many times I've spied cities, even on diety, only to find that they didn't have numerous key buildings, even though they had 3+ wonders that didn't synergize with their civ. Having 4 or 5 strong cities placed in defensive locations with good growth and production will always trump having a cap with 5 wonders and a few straggly expands thrown in.

As a diety player, I don't really ever try for wonders outside of Porcelain and Hubble. They are nice when the timing works out (enter Industrial with over 1,000 faith and liberty completed but not rationalism yet, and something like Brandenburg is available), but other than that, you're better off ignoring them completely.

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Then I'm guessing you almost always play peaceful science victory? I do think porcelain and hubble are exceptionally good for that victory condition. hubble is basically like an engineer for 2 scientists and a spaceship factory, one of the most cost effective things ever.

Sessy said:

Then I'm guessing you almost always play peaceful science victory? I do think porcelain and hubble are exceptionally good for that victory condition. hubble is basically like an engineer for 2 scientists and a spaceship factory, one of the most cost effective things ever.

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If I'm playing Pangea standard settings on diety and I'm simply trying to win without doing something fun or fancy, then yes, science/diplo are the victory conditions that are easiest to achieve in my experience.

War is easy as the AI is bad at managing armies, but it puts you behind very quickly unless you are already in a secure position to win regardless, at which point science/diplo is simply quicker. Culture is difficult, and the entire game needs to be played with that condition in mind from turn 1.

The thing is though, science is good for literally every victory condition. I go for Porcelain/Hubble regardless of how I'm trying to win (unless the game ends before then), just as I tech science techs (universities/pub schools/labs) regardless of how I plan on winning.

To me, all that matters is food, hammers, and science. If a wonder doesn't do something towards those three aspects, and if it's not attainable at Diety, then it does nothing but slow down the tech path. There are exceptions to this depending on civ synergy, but this is the general rule I've been adhering to.

I do agree though that wonders are addicting, and you better believe that every now and then I go egypt or inca and re-roll until I get a petra dream on Immortal, hogging every wonder I possibly can and laughing as they AI starts coveting my lands/wonders that I've built. Taste of their own medicine

beetle said:

It is that plus the fact that, as Babs, you are working the tech quite differently (to get the GS ASAP) than you would usually. Early game, the player is still behind the AIs for the count in number of techs, but as Babs part of the tree will be at parity. So there is more opportunity for some Wonders.

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But I thought that getting to Writing ASAP (and Philosophy after that) was the optimal strategy for any civ? Was I mistaken?