What??? I don't understand the point of this post. Shoshone can't build scouts...
Should a scout be the first thing you build in your capital right from the start?
- Thread starter FlorbFnarb
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What??? I don't understand the point of this post. Shoshone can't build scouts...
And a brand new city will not pump out a scout in 2 turns.
reddishrecue
Some dude on civfans
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@craigmak
The honor social policy
@Browd
That's true but I didn't say that.
The honor social policy
@Browd
That's true but I didn't say that.
The honor social policy has what to do with making two scouts right off the bat? you will not have any social policies by the time you are done making your first two scouts. This thread is about the very first things you make. Way before you have social policies or even any tech researched at all.
Scouts will take 3 - 4 turns on quick speed at this point in the game. 3 turns only if you are lucky on a hill working a tile that gives production.
Why do you post nonsense?
reddishrecue
Some dude on civfans
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Security
What? You're making absolutely no sense. Ladies and gentlemen, Say NO to drugs.
shaglio
The Prince of Dorkness
Not only that, but since the Shoshone start with a Pathfinder instead of a Warrior, you can build a Monument first without missing out on the exploration advantages.
reddishrecue
Some dude on civfans
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Yes.
Do you want a screenshot of a 2 turn scout?
reddishrecue
Some dude on civfans
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Thank you for your wisdom.
JohnMK
Warlord
Let me chime in on reddishrecue's behalf here, particularly with regards to my favorite Civ, Germany.
While it might not be optimal play just for the purpose of exploring more effectively with scouts, when I open Honor (always after opening Tradition first, as everybody should), I do appreciate how much more effective my scouts are at enduring the Ancient/Classical eras that often otherwise find them either a) dead or b) healing. It's true you can do OK without Honor but -- with it -- the Scout's just that much more resilient.
I favor a scout-rich strategy (2 or 3 scouts) with most civs but especially with Germany as -- coupled with Honor -- I can build up a huge military very quickly and cheaply (without having to build anything more than scouts!) that allows me to take out the nearest AI rather easily. The army quickly snowballs, and becomes so large I can demand tribute from city states. I often end up with so many units that I go over the limit, and I start to donate units to city states -- often whichever unit just got weakened the most by the most recent encampment I extinguished, assuming it's not rich with XP. Aside from the UA of Germany, I use scouts for ruins, and also quests especially when I can get another more typical military unit nearby to assist, also I use them for exploration of course, and the last one ends up filling out whatever nearby areas I haven't yet explored, to be sure that my #2 city is in the most optimal possible position. That last scout often ends up running interference for me vis-a-vis barbarians, protecting my improvements if I have any, stealing whatever workers I can find nearby, etc. Scouts are cheap, move quickly, can be upgraded with +25/+50% defense, and the overall package just synergizes really well IMO with the beginning of the game. I think people who stop at one scout on any Standard-sized map are shorting themselves some pretty solid benefits. There's no doubt that an earlier Monument or Shrine or Granary has its uses but Scouts, carefully and amply deployed, are valuable too.
While it might not be optimal play just for the purpose of exploring more effectively with scouts, when I open Honor (always after opening Tradition first, as everybody should), I do appreciate how much more effective my scouts are at enduring the Ancient/Classical eras that often otherwise find them either a) dead or b) healing. It's true you can do OK without Honor but -- with it -- the Scout's just that much more resilient.
I favor a scout-rich strategy (2 or 3 scouts) with most civs but especially with Germany as -- coupled with Honor -- I can build up a huge military very quickly and cheaply (without having to build anything more than scouts!) that allows me to take out the nearest AI rather easily. The army quickly snowballs, and becomes so large I can demand tribute from city states. I often end up with so many units that I go over the limit, and I start to donate units to city states -- often whichever unit just got weakened the most by the most recent encampment I extinguished, assuming it's not rich with XP. Aside from the UA of Germany, I use scouts for ruins, and also quests especially when I can get another more typical military unit nearby to assist, also I use them for exploration of course, and the last one ends up filling out whatever nearby areas I haven't yet explored, to be sure that my #2 city is in the most optimal possible position. That last scout often ends up running interference for me vis-a-vis barbarians, protecting my improvements if I have any, stealing whatever workers I can find nearby, etc. Scouts are cheap, move quickly, can be upgraded with +25/+50% defense, and the overall package just synergizes really well IMO with the beginning of the game. I think people who stop at one scout on any Standard-sized map are shorting themselves some pretty solid benefits. There's no doubt that an earlier Monument or Shrine or Granary has its uses but Scouts, carefully and amply deployed, are valuable too.
JohnMK
Warlord
I wanted to add that with most Civs, I would not open Honor unless facing unique circumstances, e.g., Large/Huge map, low sea levels, default or lower than default # of Civs/CS, Raging Barbarians, perhaps a few more I can't think of. But I would still be tempted to build three scouts unless I had uniquely good starting terrain that demanded I try for a certain pantheon. In that case, I'd probably build two scouts first.
Germany's Unique Ability and Unique Building (Hanse) synergize so well with what Civ5: BNW has become with regard to warmongering early, that I just can't see passing up opening Honor (but going no further than that, and only after opening Tradition first). Those who haven't tried this probably have no idea how powerful Germany's UA is. It effectively grants you the world's largest military, and a malignant, cancerous self-growing military at that, certainly by the dawn of the Classical Era (often earlier) if you've been diligent. Knowing where the barb camps are is critical to this. Such a small investment, for such huge payoff. Forget Construction, you don't need it. Your practically self-growing army of Barbarian Brutes, Axemen, the occasional Archer, Horsemen, etc., can tear your neighbors asunder without deviating from an optimal Philosophy/Education tech path. You can demand tribute from city states with your massive army, even without moving it around much to pass the tribute threshold. After Philosophy/Education, you should assign some priority to Banking. The last thing you want is a World Congress that votes to embargo City States, so with the Forbidden Palace in your back pocket you make this less likely. The German Renaissance Era unique building, the Hanse, depends on trade routes with City States to give it a level of city production which likely eclipses everybody else. With a compliant WC and peaceful relations with civilizations who are hopefully unaware of your early militarism or have come close to forgiving you, you're free to pursue a peaceful VC with that awesome level of Hanse-enhanced production that makes almost everything happen faster.
At least that's how I do it. And it all starts with plenty of scouts.
Germany's Unique Ability and Unique Building (Hanse) synergize so well with what Civ5: BNW has become with regard to warmongering early, that I just can't see passing up opening Honor (but going no further than that, and only after opening Tradition first). Those who haven't tried this probably have no idea how powerful Germany's UA is. It effectively grants you the world's largest military, and a malignant, cancerous self-growing military at that, certainly by the dawn of the Classical Era (often earlier) if you've been diligent. Knowing where the barb camps are is critical to this. Such a small investment, for such huge payoff. Forget Construction, you don't need it. Your practically self-growing army of Barbarian Brutes, Axemen, the occasional Archer, Horsemen, etc., can tear your neighbors asunder without deviating from an optimal Philosophy/Education tech path. You can demand tribute from city states with your massive army, even without moving it around much to pass the tribute threshold. After Philosophy/Education, you should assign some priority to Banking. The last thing you want is a World Congress that votes to embargo City States, so with the Forbidden Palace in your back pocket you make this less likely. The German Renaissance Era unique building, the Hanse, depends on trade routes with City States to give it a level of city production which likely eclipses everybody else. With a compliant WC and peaceful relations with civilizations who are hopefully unaware of your early militarism or have come close to forgiving you, you're free to pursue a peaceful VC with that awesome level of Hanse-enhanced production that makes almost everything happen faster.
At least that's how I do it. And it all starts with plenty of scouts.
Yes!
I always build a scout first, regardless of map...then I use it to guard the capital (only joking).
My typical early capital build is:
scout, scout, shrine, settler... (I always go Tradition so I rarely build a monument)
I usually feel I've had good value from the scouts, but typically one of them gets creamed or stuck fairly early.
I always build a scout first, regardless of map...then I use it to guard the capital (only joking).
My typical early capital build is:
scout, scout, shrine, settler... (I always go Tradition so I rarely build a monument)
I usually feel I've had good value from the scouts, but typically one of them gets creamed or stuck fairly early.
NiceOneEmlyn
Chieftain
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I just received faith from a ruin on turn 30 Marathon speed, just happened to be the same turn as I researched pottery! I suppose a good way to test this would be to play as Shoshone and see when faith becomes available at all the different speeds!
Lexicus
Deity
I think it's pretty map-dependent. If you know you're on a large continent you'll want to get a Scout or two out, usually. If on Archipelago, I'd probably start with a Monument instead.
reddishrecue
Some dude on civfans
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Getting mobile scouts out there sooner than later is good because you can find many ancient ruins that could be around your capital. Once you have scouts up soon, you can find city states early which gives you double the gold that you usually get from meeting a city state after another civilization has met it first. Usual price that you get per city state is 15 gold but when you start meeting city states first, you get 30 gold. That's double the gold that you make than meeting a city state late. After that, making a scout or two first really can pay off with not only additional gold from meeting city states first but also from finding more the ancient ruins that you can find nearby
Navelgazer
King
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Maybe bad strategy, but I always, always go monument first while researching pottery, send my warrior patrolling, start a scout in the spots between finishing the monument and finishing pottery, start a shrine as soon as possible, and then finish the scout once the shrine is done and I'm waiting for writing to complete.
I don't play at Deity level yet, for what that's worth. But I feel like every turn where I'm not getting culture and faith pumping is a turn wasted.
I don't play at Deity level yet, for what that's worth. But I feel like every turn where I'm not getting culture and faith pumping is a turn wasted.
Right, but (for most maps) meeting CS gets you more early faith and culture than the shrine and monument do. That said, I am now thinking that scout-monument-scout is best for Liberty and Honor, since those trees have stronger early policies than Tradition.
Dr. D
Warlord
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I'd recommend trying to build a scout first. As is, sounds like you're not getting one until after 20 turns or so... the AI is likely gobbling up some ancient ruins you'd likely get with an early scout, and an early culture ruin is better than a quick monument.
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