SIP or not?

Chakasulu · May 31, 2016

Hello all!

Looking for some advice on starting a new game. As tagged in the title, this is a Warlords game. The goal is to achieve a space race victory.

Looking at the screenshot I'm thinking that SIP is best with only one doubt: is giving up two riverside plains tiles worth ocean access? This is a standard sized Pangaea map. Pressed shoreline, low-sea level. I'm playing on emperor difficulty.

I doubt trade routes will affect the decision, because there will be few, if any, islands and no other continents. The only reason to grab that ocean access would be in case I get the GLH, which of course is by no means a guarantee. However that means losing out on two tiles that while weak, would eventually bloom into towns worked by the capital and/or a helper city.

What do you guys think?

lymond · May 31, 2016

hmm...interesting call here. First, I would not worry about coast or not on a Pangaea map. However, if there was visible seafood there, then settling on the Bananas would probably be a good call...and still possibly not a bad idea.

Before anything, I would want to move the warrior 1SW to see what is on that tile.

SIP is more than fine here. Quite a strong start and since you are FIN, probably a pretty good Bureau spot with plenty of food. So based on what I see right now, I'd probably either SIP or SOB.

6K Man · May 31, 2016

Force of habit would push me 1N to settle, because I have an unreasonable dislike of being 1 off the coast. Beyond that, riverside plains aren't all that great, and I wonder if the tile you are on isn't a hidden resource?

Move the warrior, then decide.

nate46 · May 31, 2016

I don't understand how this is even a debate. Settle on the bananas. Its on the coast, its within range of both gems and the corn. It has a natural trade connection to that plains hill river which is a fairly obvious spot for your second city.

you realize that if you settle on the bananas, you get +1 food in your capital all game long, right? This will make you grow much faster, your first worker will come faster, your settlers will come faster.

lymond · May 31, 2016

6K Man said:
wonder if the tile you are on isn't a hidden resource?

At least for standard map scripts, your settler will not start on a hidden resource.

yeah, nate, certainly can't go wrong with nanners. What warrior reveals may change things.

but "on the coast" is not a big deal here at all

vincentz · May 31, 2016

Its been awhile since I played un-modded, but I really dont understand why you wouldn't settle 1N.
You get all the resources.
You get bonus for settle near fresh water
you get sea buildings from settling near ocean
You get the hill
You have a "semi defense" from the river

I cant see any reason to why not settle there. please enlighten me

Chakasulu · May 31, 2016

vincentz said:
Its been awhile since I played un-modded, but I really dont understand why you wouldn't settle 1N.
You get all the resources.
You get bonus for settle near fresh water
you get sea buildings from settling near ocean
You get the hill
You have a "semi defense" from the river

I cant see any reason to why not settle there. please enlighten me

That's what I was thinking too, but figured I'd check my thinking against the rest of you.

That said, Nate does offer a compelling reason with the +1 food for settler/worker production. Not quite as good as plains/hill, but still something to think about.

6K Man · May 31, 2016

Settling on the Bananas gives up fresh water/riverside... which isn't nothing. It also looks like you'd be getting more Coast tiles from that spot, which you may or may not want. The riverside PH might not have the food to be a site for a second city... etc.

lymond · Jun 1, 2016

1N is losing a turn for no gain. Sea buildings? What ..a harbor? no reason to move for that. Only reason is if you are dead set on GLH which is generally a weak wonder on Pangaea.

Settling on Nanners will speed up your start, while keeping all visible specials. (warrior might reveal something)

Regardless, SIP is probably your best move here.

Fippy · Jun 1, 2016

Well let's see, space race you want the best Burcap spot usually.
Unlikely you will move your Palace, sweet gems.

Settling on Nanas would be out for me then, moving away from a river? Nope..
Some brown river tiles are totally fine in Burcaps, with 2 food resis.
1h is weaker than 1 more food on green tiles, but you get bonus hammers in Bur. as well.

Also by moving on Nanas you lose 2 not forested tiles, can easily be a good resource hidden on the ph or 2w1s of your settler.
And Nanas are 5 food later, getting a 3f city tile would be slightly better but not if that also means getting a weaker long term city.

Like Lymo said, moving 1N is not really good here.
Also costs some forest hammers which are always valuable.
Harbors are good in Bur. caps cos the better trade routes get multiplied several times by bonuses and buildings, but it's Pangea without oversea routes.
On other map scripts, maybe.

nate46 · Jun 1, 2016

Eh... who cares about long term. He has double gems, that's his long-term right there.

Only way he loses this is if the early game goes extremely badly.

first 100 turns are way more important to deciding this game than anything that happens after he already has civil service. First 100 turns will be much safer and faster if he starts bananas.

Fippy · Jun 1, 2016

I write without knowing how experienced he plays, if he asks for advice then maybe this game can be a challenge..

..and overall you seem to know so much already, for a guy who asks when to build granaries.

Tristan_C · Jun 1, 2016

The banana spot is good below emperor. But even then I would hate giving up the health cap or the hammers in the south (a bureaucap isn't just commerce).

/e: nevermind, the hammers are significantly better around the banana. Maybe I am a bit stupid with modded graphics. I think the sites are a wash.

lymond · Jun 1, 2016

Tristan_C said:
(a bureaucap isn't just commerce).

But in large part it is ..at least for the longer game.

I'd probably look at it this way for simplicity:

1) If going for long game like Space and maybe Diplo..SIP

2) If going for quick kill everybody on Pangaea as soon as possible..SoN (aka SoB).

3) caveat - if playing on IMM+, I'd recommend SIP regardless.

Chakasulu · Jun 2, 2016

Thank you for all the feedback. I ended up SIP because I'm going for space though I probably would have moved if I was going Dom. That said, after settling another corn was revealed in the southwest of the city limits so that was a nice piece of luck.

Macksideshow · Jun 2, 2016

My first thought was settle in place as that is a great spot, 1 tile from coast means little here as it only includes 1 coast tile in the bfc. I didnt consider settle on the banannas though.

I think both options are good. The extra food from settling on the banannas would be a good early boost to help work those gems asap. The freshwater, river, bananna tile and likely more forests for SIP will help later but for longer

Lymond - I am wondering why say IMM+ swings it towards SIP.

Imperator Knoedel · Jun 2, 2016

Won't anyone think of the plains hill? D:

Macksideshow · Jun 2, 2016

Imp. Knoedel said:
Won't anyone think of the plains hill? D:

I thought about it but would prefer both gems in the capital BFC.

As others have said, settling the bannanas will give a similar (better?) bonus while keeping both gems and leaves the plains hill available for another city.

Fippy · Jun 2, 2016

He was joking, with PHs being so popular for settling

lymond · Jun 2, 2016

Macksideshow said:
Lymond - I am wondering why say IMM+ swings it towards SIP.

Well, simply that if going for a war game on higher levels you are likely looking at longer game where a good Bureau cap is important. SIP is the better city.

Fippy said:
He was joking, with PHs being so popular for settling

ha..yep, I hoped he was kidding

SIP or not?

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