Crime and Disease?

Thunderbrd · Nov 12, 2015

Dancing Hoskuld said:
It does not remove from population, specialists (eg slaves and settled slaves), etc.

Diseases are implemented as buildings which is a problem with diseases not with the Shaman and Druid cathedral level buildings which predate the disease stuff by many many versions of C2C. This could "easily" be fixed if the buildings gave a free specialist that only provided for example.

This probably wont cause problems with the Education as it is not a generic free specialist but one like the Great Library gives, ie appears in the "settled specialist" area of the screen which is unaffected by Education (I think).

It will cause minor problems in the city screen with the "settled specialists" getting even longer.

edit - to do

need an icon for this specialist - I recon a rat is appropriate

create the specialist

change the diseases to add these specilists

change the property system to remove specialists when building goes (probably not needed as already done when the building goes)

change city screen python for the specialist box. Next on my list of things to do as I have bumped it up above the modular religion stuff and all the animal stuff I am working on.

If it's possible to add the specialists instead of the buildings, that's cool - I suppose that would work the same as the building spawns and removal. Buildings could be added for additional effects as well still though. But if it requires adding a building which then adds a specialist which then adds the unhealth it seems like overengineering to me just to get around a tag that's already horribly imbalanced even if these disease considerations are made.

The problem with that tag is that later in the game in particular buildings become a huge source of direct unhealth. Perhaps they shouldn't be set to be so punishing and that's another factor for discussion itself. But regardless, that singular tag makes unhealth too easy to manage. It would be much better a tag that reduces unheatlh per population or something.

JosEPh_II said:
How do you grow a city to size 40 in Ancient Era at masonry? What gamespeed are you using and please post a screen shot.

JosEPh

Easily done with the food merchants coupled with the production power of a solid amount of slaves.

Dancing Hoskuld · Nov 12, 2015

There are other latter era buildings that also use that tag. We could make is an obsoleting part of the cathedral building by making a second building auto built with just that tag set and have that building go obsolete at some stage.

However I don't agree that it is any more OP than many of the cathedral buildings of other religions. Other religions also have Great Wonders something Shaman and Druid don't have. It is the whole religion you need to look at not just one building within the religion. At least two of the religions have cathedral level buildings that greatly increase your income for example.

Part of the problem is that we used to have it that you needed 3 temples for cathedral buildings now we just need a population except for Shaman and Druid where you still need 4 temples (or is it monastery level building) for the first cathedral and 8 (or is it 16) for the second. (Numbers are adjusted for game speed, map size etc.)

If you could build the building in every city it would indeed make the religion OP as it is I don't see it.

Thunderbrd · Nov 12, 2015

I just think the tag effect is a bit too deuce ex machina - solves too much in one hit. I'm not saying the early religions don't need something powerful like that but I do think the tag is simply over the top in ALL places its used.

Septentrion · Nov 12, 2015

Dancing Hoskuld said:
It does not remove from population, specialists (eg slaves and settled slaves), etc.

Diseases are implemented as buildings which is a problem with diseases not with the Shaman and Druid cathedral level buildings which predate the disease stuff by many many versions of C2C. This could "easily" be fixed if the buildings gave a free specialist that only provided for example.

This probably wont cause problems with the Education as it is not a generic free specialist but one like the Great Library gives, ie appears in the "settled specialist" area of the screen which is unaffected by Education (I think).

It will cause minor problems in the city screen with the "settled specialists" getting even longer.

edit - to do

need an icon for this specialist - I recon a rat is appropriate

create the specialist

change the diseases to add these specilists

change the property system to remove specialists when building goes (probably not needed as already done when the building goes)

That seems like such a strange way to handle disease just to make a shaman/druid building work. I don't see why the health bonus must still be done through buildings. giving 15 :health:

would be less powerful and not require major changes to the game. It's already bad enough the slaves gives :culture:

as specialist with early wonders.

Also, disease should have other effects as well, such as :traderoute:

penalties.

More not complicated ways to have a health bonus

Make shaman cathedral affect only certain buildings
make it work off of population like sewers systems.
make the health bonuses reliant on animals
Makes it lower disease rate or block diseases

It's an overpowered building as it is. In my game (normal, Prince,) my mega city was far from having any :yuck:

affect the city, much less have it became an actually hindrance.

Toffer90 · Nov 12, 2015

Thunderbrd said:
I just think the tag effect is a bit too deuce ex machina - solves too much in one hit. I'm not saying the early religions don't need something powerful like that but I do think the tag is simply over the top in ALL places its used.

Just to amplify what is said here: giving those cathedrals +100 :health:

instead of the no health from buidings tag would still be a nerf imo.
Sure, it would be better at the time the building becomes available but it would be weaker in the long run.

To me that tag only seems appropriate for some hyper futuristic building that should have a hefty tradeoff like -50% :gold:

jshetley · Nov 12, 2015

I'm almost up to writing now and yes if you ignore crime it will bite you. I notice that it hits fairly hard even on the 2nd turn after a city is built but it can be managed fairly easily with the crime fighting buildings. I try not to let crime go over 100 under any circumstances and if it does to bring it down quickly if I can. I have had a few cities hit +150 in crime and when they do things can get nasty. I find myself heading for masonry earlier than I used to to get the town watchmen. The crime in this mod has come a long way, because in earlier versions I could ignore it for the most part. Not now though. Great job.

Dancing Hoskuld · Nov 12, 2015

Septentrion said:
That seems like such a strange way to handle disease just to make a shaman/druid building work. I don't see why the health bonus must still be done through buildings. giving 15 would be less powerful and not require major changes to the game. It's already bad enough the slaves gives as specialist with early wonders.

Also, disease should have other effects as well, such as penalties.

More not complicated ways to have a health bonus

Make shaman cathedral affect only certain buildings

make it work off of population like sewers systems.

make the health bonuses reliant on animals

Makes it lower disease rate or block diseases

It's an overpowered building as it is. In my game (normal, Prince,) my mega city was far from having any affect the city, much less have it became an actually hindrance.

Most important disease is not :yuck:

. Currently I believe we are double counting the :yuck:

affect of disease as we have not removed the original BtS disease component of :yuck:

. Nor have we removed the pollution component of :yuck:

, Which bege the question what exactly is :yuck:

in C2C?

It does not just affect Shaman and Druid cathedrals it affects a couple of modern buildings as well.

Not possible to have it only affect certain other buildings currently. It would not be a simple XML change although we probably make some auto built buildings when you have both! Talk about deuce ex machina :mischief:

. Mind you auto buildings are deuce ex machina!

Animals for Druid, plants for Shaman at the moment.

Toffer90 · Nov 12, 2015

Dancing Hoskuld said:
Which bege the question what exactly is in C2C?

Imo it is any source of increased mortality rate or decreased birth rate. It can slow population growth rate but most importantly decides/limits the maximum population of a city.
:health:

is the complete opposite.

Food wastage, probability for fatal accidents, average age, sanitary conditions, fertility, lifestyle problems, pollution/disease effects, etc.

Edit: Only thing that is strange is that population growth rate is only limited by food production when :health:

is greater than :yuck:

.

Thunderbrd · Nov 12, 2015

Dancing Hoskuld said:
Most important disease is not . Currently I believe we are double counting the affect of disease as we have not removed the original BtS disease component of . Nor have we removed the pollution component of , Which begs the question what exactly is in C2C?

I'm not sure what the 'original BtS disease component is you're referring to exactly. Is that what you assume the population unhealth to be an indication of?

I simply take :yuck:

to mean 'mortality rate'. As a result of this outlook, I believe it should be difficult to impossible to keep your cities fully 'healthy'. This makes any unhealth that comes from disease something that can actually reduce population. I also feel that the unhealth from disease is far too minor but I'm not complaining about that until advanced disease systems go into play.

However, I'm also liking the idea of incorporating a pop% mortality tag with diseases that affect the city upon outbreak.

Not possible to have it only affect certain other buildings currently. It would not be a simple XML change although we probably make some auto built buildings when you have both!

Yeah, it might be finagleable but a pain in the arse and would become a fairly hidden mechanism. Not the best solution but just one proposed alternative. I like the % of pop health that aqueducts have myself.

Talk about deuce ex machina. Mind you auto buildings are deuce ex machina!

Not sure what you mean here. I suppose they CAN be and there's a lot of potential hidden stuff that can take place this way. Overuse of autobuildings is certainly something that can cause problems for turn times and game play.

Animals for Druid, plants for Shaman at the moment.

Don't get me wrong... I LIKE these religions. Just not this one overly powerful tag.

Noriad2 · Nov 12, 2015

Dancing Hoskuld said:
Most important disease is not .

A healthy (i.e. varied) diet increases your resistance to disease and this increases your chance of surviving a disease instead of dying from it. So it is not a bad idea to have disease and (un)health interact with each other.

The only possible exception I know of is the Spanish Flu, which appeared more deadly for young people than for old people, who usually are more suspectible to death by flu. Some speculated that the virus somehow triggered the body's own resistance against itself. Other speculate that older people still had immunity from an outbreak of a similar flu type decades earlier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu_pandemic

JosEPh_II · Nov 12, 2015

jshetley said:
I'm almost up to writing now and yes if you ignore crime it will bite you. I notice that it hits fairly hard even on the 2nd turn after a city is built but it can be managed fairly easily with the crime fighting buildings. I try not to let crime go over 100 under any circumstances and if it does to bring it down quickly if I can. I have had a few cities hit +150 in crime and when they do things can get nasty. I find myself heading for masonry earlier than I used to to get the town watchmen. The crime in this mod has come a long way, because in earlier versions I could ignore it for the most part. Not now though. Great job.

Good to hear, and Thanks.

There is a gap before Masonry that If you left your Crime unattended it can hurt you till you can build the TWs. After the TW's become available, it may take 2 -4 in a fair size city to get a handle back on Crime.

Once I get more feed back from the clas/med/ren eras then I can do some more "adjustments" to When a Crime shows up and see if the pressure can be maintained but not overpowering.

JosEPh

JosEPh_II · Nov 25, 2015

Moved Looting back to Classical Era to the Tech Code of Laws from Preh Era and Warfare. For now, it may get moved to Med Era later. Also reduced it's commerce malus from losing 50 gold/turn to 30. And upped it's Mincrime Level to 300 from 250. This should help your scenario out Pit2015.

But some recent discussion have reminded me of how Crime per turn levels are interwoven into many of the Leader's individual Traits. So as I;ve said before the Individual Crimes listed in this thread are but the tip of the iceberg that is Crime overall. And is also why the Mod has way to many anti crime bldgs later in the game but also is why the AI and Players must builds TW's like crazy in the early to mid game.

Just an FYI on why there has not been much movement on my part to get Stage 2 finished so I can start Stage 3.

JosEPh

Thunderbrd · Nov 25, 2015

Yeah, leave a little margin for traits for now... I'll eventually redesign them according to something along the lines of my initial workups. But to get off track with what I'm doing now would be disastrous to progress. MAYBE before the end of this version cycle I could bang it out. Maybe. My take on properties and traits would be a bit easier to account for.

JosEPh_II · Nov 25, 2015

Thunderbrd said:
Yeah, leave a little margin for traits for now... I'll eventually redesign them according to something along the lines of my initial workups. But to get off track with what I'm doing now would be disastrous to progress. MAYBE before the end of this version cycle I could bang it out. Maybe. My take on properties and traits would be a bit easier to account for.

Problem is even with lowering the minCrime levels on almost all the Individual Crimes the only place the Mod (AI and Player) has a Tough time with crime is the Preh and Ancient Eras. By the time you get past Classical and Med Eras it's been overcome but the AI has suffered enough that unless it's a Leader that has the Optimal Traits they have fallen behind many of the Higher difficulty level players. Hence the Cry that the mod is too easy and crime can be ignored. In my earlier days if I'd seen this more clearly I would've cried out even more for Crimes removal from the mod. Now I find myself trying to make it more relevant for the overall mod playing process. Crazy! :crazyeye:

JosEPh

Faustmouse · Nov 25, 2015

FYI, there are tags in place that allow you the modification of crime outputs by techs or bonus. So you could say "Market gives +1Crime, but +4 Crime if you have Gold Ingots" or "when you research Gunpowder, Banks have +5 more crime" etc. So you could adjust crime output as you progress to the techtree to avoid the lategame being too easy to control.

Thunderbrd · Nov 25, 2015

JosEPh_II said:
Problem is even with lowering the minCrime levels on almost all the Individual Crimes the only place the Mod (AI and Player) has a Tough time with crime is the Preh and Ancient Eras. By the time you get past Classical and Med Eras it's been overcome but the AI has suffered enough that unless it's a Leader that has the Optimal Traits they have fallen behind many of the Higher difficulty level players. Hence the Cry that the mod is too easy and crime can be ignored. In my earlier days if I'd seen this more clearly I would've cried out even more for Crimes removal from the mod. Now I find myself trying to make it more relevant for the overall mod playing process. Crazy!

JosEPh

Which is exactly why over a year ago I requested an earlier law enforcement unit. I was the first to express my experience of this loss of control over crime early on that made it nearly impossible to handle afterwards.

I'm very close to being ready to inject the planned units that should help tremendously with this stage of balance.

But yeah, traits could still be adjusted. I questioned the validity of the sudden crime surge that many traits set leaders up to experience when they were introduced and I'd have to say to Sgt Slick on that... told ya so

(it proves to be the pain in the arse I said it would be)

Dancing Hoskuld · Nov 25, 2015

@Joe you mentioned that we had a doctor specialist too early in the game. It can be removed from the Healer's Hut if you like. That means you won't get one until "Doctor's Surgery" is built.

Thunderbrd · Nov 25, 2015

I quite like that specialist - perhaps Medical Professional or something might make it more era generic.

JosEPh_II · Nov 25, 2015

Dancing Hoskuld said:
@Joe you mentioned that we had a doctor specialist too early in the game. It can be removed from the Healer's Hut if you like. That means you won't get one until "Doctor's Surgery" is built.

I just wanted to know if it was intended. I have no problem with it if it's how you designed it. And it's working like you want. I just was surprised to see it and was checking to make sure it was right.

If it reduces needing to add an extra healer in the early game it's Good for me!

JosEPh

Dancing Hoskuld · Nov 25, 2015

Thunderbrd said:
I quite like that specialist - perhaps Medical Professional or something might make it more era generic.

Opening it up and changing its name will mean more buildings that could give one. I feel we should try and keep the number of each specialist available below 10 oe so as they loose their impact otherwise.

The Civic mechanism allows for "unlimited" specialists of one kind. Unlimited is limited by your population. I feel this is being over used at the moment.

JosEPh_II said:
I just wanted to know if it was intended. I have no problem with it if it's how you designed it. And it's working like you want. I just was surprised to see it and was checking to make sure it was right.

If it reduces needing to add an extra healer in the early game it's Good for me!

JosEPh

There were no buildings pre-transhuman giving access to any doctor specialists.

It probably needs to be discussed more.

Crime and Disease?

C2C War Dog

Deity

C2C War Dog

Warlord

C2C Modder

Warlord

Deity

C2C Modder

C2C War Dog

Emperor

TBS WarLord

TBS WarLord

C2C War Dog

TBS WarLord

Deity

C2C War Dog

Deity

C2C War Dog

TBS WarLord

Deity

Similar threads