How to beat Civs to key early wonders on high difficulty

In my last two games, I find that I target a key earlyish wonder and it seems I have no hope to beat the AI.

This game I wanted to:

• Get Forbidden Palace targeting Diplomatic victory as Greece on Emperor. I got the notification that it was built the turn after I researched Banking.
• Get Chichen Itza as Brazil on King targeting Culture victory. I was two turns too late, even though I rushed Civil Service.

How can I win these races in a high difficulty level? It seemed so unattainable on Emperor, forget about it on Immortal+.

Here's a much more detailed writeup of how the game went (first ever Emperor win, hooray), but it's not relevant to the original question so I'll hide it for those not interested:

In order to see what exactly is the problem, can you post a screenshot of your empire?
Also can you post your turn numbers when you completed NC, and the turn you researched Education? CI should be pretty easy on Kings, so I suspect that your tech rate is just not high enough, I would need to look at your cities to see what the problem is. I suspect that your cities are too small, or working incorrect tiles. For any difficulties below immortal, you can get any wonders you want as long as you reach that tech early enough and have enough hammers.

Sclb said:

In order to see what exactly is the problem, can you post a screenshot of your empire?

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Sure. Around what turn? Game end? When I first researched Civil Service / Banking respectively? Note that I was playing both games on Legendary start, maybe it helps the computer too much.

Also note that I stole no Settlers nor Workers from Civs, in the King game I stole nothing and in the Emperor game I stole one worker from a CS. I couldn't find anything to steal from the nearest neighbor (China)...

I also didn't completely beeline Civil Service and Banking; in the King game I got Bronze Working for chopping jungles and Calendar first.

If the plan is to play Tall with 4-5 cities, how many Cities should one have around the time of completion of CI?

A screenshot around turn 100 on standard would help. Turn 100 is around the time when NC should have already finished, and you're getting on your way to Education. On non deity difficulty, I find worker stealing often too slow for my need and I always put workers in the queue at some point.

You should have founded all cities by turn 100 if your goal is only 4-5 cities, you should've finished building NC when you have 3-4 cities. Sometimes using your first expo to build the last settler (after NC) will speed up you game as it frees up the capital for building infrastructure or wonders such as Oracle/Chitzen Itza.

yeah CI on King is very much doable. IIRC It won't even go until T120-ish and you should have plenty of time for it

Sclb said:

...For any difficulties below immortal, you can get any wonders you want as long as you reach that tech early enough and have enough hammers.

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I think "any" is an exaggeration. Maybe some, but not any.

And it's a big "if," so far as reaching that tech early enough and adequate hammers.

I think that Emperor and above it's iffy about getting wonders.

Even the most difficult wonder, Great Library is possible on deity if you can steal early worker and chop, AND discovered one of the required tech from a ruin, so I'm not sure what's the problem, if you beeline correctly, you get it on a lower difficulty.

Sclb said:

A screenshot around turn 100 on standard would help. Turn 100 is around the time when NC should have already finished, and you're getting on your way to Education. On non deity difficulty, I find worker stealing often too slow for my need and I always put workers in the queue at some point.

You should have founded all cities by turn 100 if your goal is only 4-5 cities, you should've finished building NC when you have 3-4 cities. Sometimes using your first expo to build the last settler (after NC) will speed up you game as it frees up the capital for building infrastructure or wonders such as Oracle/Chitzen Itza.

Click to expand...

This post makes me think the problem is finishing libraries in my expos. I suspect (I don't have access to my saves right now) that NC ends up taking much longer than this for that reason. In the Emperor game my build order in the expos was something like Shrine -> Granary -> Library (no monument bc Legalism). 400 is a lot to scrape together, especially if I want to rush the Granary.

stormtrooper412 said:

yeah CI on King is very much doable. IIRC It won't even go until T120-ish and you should have plenty of time for it

Click to expand...

I did only miss it by two turns...

Thing is, Civil Service is usually unlocked at 90ish

Early Wonders are risky on Deity. I have done Pyramids I think once... ever on Deity.

Depending on Policies(AI usually goes Liberty in most of my games) you have some doors open to you but the risk vs reward?

Chichen Itza is usually difficult for Brazil because the Jungle bias means you will have low production so I think it depends a lot on the initial start.
You could try the Liberty finisher to pop a Great Engineer. Outside of that I think your best bet is to build your settlers and establish your expo's as early as possible so you have maximum growth and beakers, Hopefully you can pick up a caravan or two from a neighbor to boost your science.

Forbidden Palace isn't so bad because usually only a couple civs will dip into Patronage. Quite often if you have built a one or two Wonders that produce engineer points you can then build and staff a workshop to produce a great engineer early. You'll probably want to beeline Education for the university and then Metal Casting to get the great engineer and then beeline straight to Banking. Although that is a few detours so that might not always be optimal.

Alright, here are some screenshots. The closest save I had to turn 100 was turn 111, so here it is:

Overall screenshot:



Tech tree:



Capitol:



Demographics:



Culture:



Religion:

You should have taken a FPT pantheon (in your case, Goddess of Festivals) if you wanted to play a religious game or Sun God (4 wheat in range of your capital!) if you wanted to accelerate your early game. Your pantheon should be doing the heavy lifting in getting you a religion, not shrines and temples. You're hurting yourself by building shrines and granaries immediately in your expos instead of libraries. In a Tradition game, you should have time to build a granary in your first expo and maybe your second, but your third will need to either build a library immediately or you will have to buy it. (if you only have time to build one building, it's better to build a library and buy a granary than vice-versa) If you can't afford it, delay settling the city until you build NC. Finishing the NC on T111 would be late, but good enough to catch up on Emperor. Not even having all of your libraries up at that point is why you're getting beat to Medieval/Renaissance wonders.

3 things:

1. Some Wonders are dependent on unlocking certain policies. A lot of the time now there won't be anyone who has opened Tradition or Liberty, making those wonders easy as pie, even on Deity. Pay attention to which policy trees have been opened.

2. You shouldn't be struggling to get any wonders on Emperor or below. It's a piece of pie if you grow your cities and improve your production tiles. I suggest you research classic starting strategies on this forum, such as Tabarnak's Tradition guide.

3. A guy called FilthyRobot made a comprehensive video on YouTube about looking for the 'skeletons' of wonders as they are being built. Learn to recognise them. Since I watched this video, I can get whichever wonders I want 95% of the time on Deity, since I learned not to 'want' what I can't have For instance, when I build Colossus, I have a really good look before committing the hammers.

Ok, here's how I see it. I will list my points in the same order as in the screenshots:

1. Your science is really low for this point in the game and you're building temples whereas you should be buildings Libraries. Therefore no NC yet. You should have also built more workers. Having 5 of them instead of 3 is a big difference in the early game.

2. You don't really have much water resources around, and yet you teched Optics when you should have gone straight through CS and then to Education. Also I don't think you should have teched Construction if you don't plan on going into an early war, which was also a possibility.

3. You capital is small-ish for turn 111. You are building a Coliseum even though you have a Lighthouse available and your happiness is plentiful.

4. With everything said so far, you could be ranked higher.

5. I think this is the biggest issue. You should ALWAYS finish Tradition before opening any other trees, Tradition is by far the strongest opening tree in the game and not only did you not get the finisher which is the best policy in the game, you also missed the bonus food to cap which would have made your cap even stronger.

6. I dislike Papal Primacy, because it needs A LOT of effort to work, instead a gold generating founder would be much more useful.

That being said, do you happen to have a turn 0 autosave so I can try out this map and see how much stuff I'd get. I promise not to whack China

Well, this might not help you in your current game, but here's an alternative strategy for a successful wonder spamming game on Emperor.
1. Pick Egypt
2. Get a decent starting location with good production potential. Ideally a plains environment with some hills, a river and a wheat tile or two. Your luxxes are hopefully either Mining or Calendar tied.
3. Go Liberty and not Tradition. You can't be bothered with building workers or settlers, takes way too much time in a crucial phase, and even the Aristocracy policy cannot make up for that, and stealing a worker is not always an available option.
4. Initial build order Scout-Monument-Granary-Shrine
5. Initial research order Pottery-Mining-Writing-Calendar
6. Pick Monument to the Gods as your pantheon

Here is how it works: The first key wonder you want to go for is the GL. Getting it means an early era advance, and the ability to get your NC very early. With the above listed build and research order, you should almost always be able to achieve that. It also means the Oracle is a safe bet for you.

Now, depending on what happens on the way, you might alter your strategy a bit. For example, if you were lucky and got Archery from a goody hut, switch your production to the Temple of Artemis, if you found Calendar before you've researched Writing, go for Stonehenge. No matter what happens, once you've researched Writing, you go for GL immediately no matter what.

Once the GL is built, evaluate your options. I usually go for Stonehenge or Artemis, if I don't already have it.
If you already have your pantheon by that time, you still have a very good chance of getting it. If it was already built by another civ, use the time to build your NC(You'll likely be still with only your capital by that time, so this option should be available), otherwise build Stonehenge, then the NC, then the Oracle.

After that focus on the techs in the bottom half of the tree, so that you can go for things like the Pyramids, the Colossus, and the Hanging Gardens.
Obviously the HG are the Tradtion wonder, but the Oracle you hopefully own allowed you the take the Tradition opener.

Try to settle your 2nd city at the coast, as Egypt you rarely get a coastal start, and you really want the Colossus. Build a caravan as soon as your 2nd city is settled and send it there.

For the Liberty finisher, you will of course choose a Great Scientist, and plant it in your capital. Together with your early NC, this will go a long way in racking up your science output.

After that, pick Aristocracy from the Tradition tree as the last policy before moving on to the Medieval trees.
As for the Religion, pick whatever you want, just make sure it has Divine Inspiration. You can wait for the Enhancer belief to take it, as I've never seen the AI taking it. But for you as the wonder spammer it'll be fantastic, you'll have a tremendous faith output.

Some people might come up and scream *noooooooooo, finishing Tradtion is soooooooo important*. And usually this is correct. However, as an Egypt wonder spammer, many of the Tradition advantages are less relevant.
- You won't have happiness problems, you build wonders and Burial Tombs.
- You can easily skip on free Amphitheaters, you are a production powerhouse, and generate a lot culture from wonders anyway.
- You don't need the ability to faith buy Great Engineers, you are guaranteed to generate quite a few on the process, and you don't depend on them anyway. Freedom will be your natural Ideology choice later in the game, so you'll just buy your spaceship parts, if you want to win that way.
So that leaves us with the Tradition opener, which you have picked, Aristocracy which you have picked, and the food bonus from Landed Elite, which you'll miss.
But to make up for that, there are the Temple of Artemis, the Hanging Gardens, or a food bonus from Religion. And even without all of those, you'll still be fine.

Going Liberty however gives you the opportunity to go for some of those very early game wonders, and it provides you that NC+Academy combo, which does wonders for your science. Together with your production advantages, this puts you into the position of getting almost everything you want.

I can't really agree with all of this. For a wonder spamming game, you need big cities, and Tradition provides the big. There is an Egypt map in the ICL, on which I went OCC and finished with 25 wonders

I'd also estimate Spain are better if you want this game. If you start near GBR/LV/Kili you'll be ahead so much, you won't really need anything else

What you need in the first place is production, and yes, population takes a part in it. But there's lots more ways to growth, than just relying on the Tradition tree.
My biggest cities are all Pop40+ by the end of the game, when employing this strategy. There's no need to stick to the same boring Tradition strategy every single time.
It works, and it works without completely outlandish preconditions. It works even without the worker steal exploit.
There's still a possibility of failing, if you get really unlucky, like only maps and barb locations from your ruins, or if you have Korea, France, and the Maya in the game at the same time, all beelining for a different wonder, etc. But on average it is reliable, and it offers some unique options.
Doesn't mean going full tradition doesn't work, but getting several of the really early game wonders is more likely with the method I outlined.
An OCC on a specialized map hardly counts against it, since you a) don't have to manage building wonders and your expansion, and b) you usually have an amazing starting location.
If you're willing to re-roll your starts often enough to get Spain with the NWs you have mentioned, you might as well re-roll Egypt till you get Salt and Marble. Then you might as well go up the difficulty to Immortal.

Take a look at the Egypt map I mentioned, it does have one Marble though but nothing spectacular. I'm fairly sure I managed to swing the GL, ToA, HG and Petra and never looked back

Where to find it? Anyway, Marble itself is the biggest possible boost for early game wonders. In addition, in an OCC you just don't have to cramp settlers into your production queue. In an OCC you are also fine with a single worker you likely have stolen.
My concept does without Marble, without stolen workers and factors expansion in.
Again, I'm not saying other ways wouldn't work. A lot of ways lead to Rome when playing Civ, some are just more reliable than others.
And in some rare cases, a Liberty start might prove being the more promising way. That's coming from someone who has had more than enough Tradition starts to compare