The benefits of avoiding bronze working

Raphs_Sai said:

But to answer your question, I just started my 4th city, 6 archers, 1 warrior, and 1 worker.

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Went fairly relaxed on the GLH (on continents you can actually afford it) and built it 1440 BC. Played until 1120 to have a comparison.

Cities: 4 settled, 5th settler in build. Infra: cap: granary, LH, GLH, Library in build; others: none, two granaries in build.
Units: 2 workers, 6 warriors, 1 WB scout, galley in build
Techs: (Fishing + Agriculture) --> Mining --> BW --> Hunting --> The Wheel --> Pottery --> Sailing --> Masonry --> AH --> Writing --> Alpha (5t to go) (although I popped some gold out of huts).

On very competitive maps (say islands or archipelago) you rather want the GLH sooner than that, so maybe leave at least pottery for later. Also, AH wasn't strictly necessary because Asoka has it.

Tip: Archery isn't really needed on this map. You can spawn bust fairly easily and there are plenty of hill forests.

Interesting, we were very similar at that point despite different playing styles. You tend to build your cities closer together. I noticed you built your capital on the Stone, not a bad idea now I think of it. I actually love building my cities on resources sometimes, such as a grassland Sugar.

I thought the only Hill/Forest I could use was to the northwest. There's that annoying ice hills up north, so I had to put archers up there to defend myself. I did have some trouble with barbs as I lost 2 warriors and 2 archers up to that point (according to the statistics).

My GLH approach was different as I used my capital to continue building Settlers and archers while I used New York to build the GLH. I attached my 1120BC save as well.

Ralphs Sai: The differences I can immediately see:

1. due to whipping I'm slightly ahead on infra. That was to be expected, although the cap and NY can do just fine without whipping too. However, whipping with a granary beats using hammer tiles, especially at lower pop, so why not go for it. (My cap whipped the first settler with OF into the granary and then whipped max OF of two more settlers into the GLH.)

2. Don't know if that's due to the lack of whipping but you're lacking another worker. The cap's FPs should have been cottaged long ago. (This is one of the reasons why settling the cities closer together is a good idea. You can alternate between whipping and growing in the three cities, and whichever has a citizen to spare can work a cottage. The other reason is reduced maintenance.)

3. I'm also ahead on research. That is due to cottaging the FPs early and due to an earlier GLH. Note: my scouting WB had reached Asoka by the time Writing was in and by the time the GLH completed, so I was immediately able to profit from foreign TRs. You still have some turns to Writing and you haven't scouted the sailing TRs at all (which you must if you want the GLH to be efficient).

4. This map seems to be ridiculously slow on wonders (SH went ~1500 BC in my game), so you still have time to complete the Mids if you want it, I reckon. Tip: I'd whip some libraries before that. Whipping is better on this map than chopping, there's not too much forest around so saving it for Maths is better.

5. Kudos for presenting a start that can do without BW as well This is what B.Q should have done in the first place.

Seriously?

This article tells that skipping BW is a viable Strategy if "one wants to get things later" and "doesn't want to win asap" ...

To my opinion, must (dumb) Strategies in these forums are proposed by people, that don't pay enough attention to what matters in the game, to exploit what's definately overpowered, and to play and win Deity by that.

They play suboptimal, so their games even go to a point where Lumbermills are available, and due to an unadequate love to forrests, big cities and other things hurting their own developement of their game / playstyle, they invent large, intelligent sounding strategies, that have the fault, that the pre-assumption already is wrong, so out of 1 error, they're making 2, GZ!

Seraiel

I don't think we need to look at it as avoiding BW like the plague. But a lot of players beeline for it thinking it as a game breaking tech when it isn't always the case. Sometimes forest chops might want to be saved for later. Though, the case of avoiding BW so you can get Liberalism is a little extreme. Avoiding BW so a Great Merchant can bulb Civil Service but avoid Metal Casting is a realistic scenario.

I've done my last couple games without using Slavery at all. Mainly cuz I valued the extra happiness greater over the increase in production so I could tech faster. And I arranged my worked tiles so that I had little surplus food after reaching the happy cap so that made whipping undesirable. Also, cities that have reached the happy cap can just focus on producing Settlers/Workers. If you're running specialists early in the game, whipping probably isn't a good idea either. If I were at war, then yes I would be valuing production over population.

Raphs_Sai said:

Avoiding BW so a Great Merchant can bulb Civil Service but avoid Metal Casting is a realistic scenario.

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Not really, unless you want to shoot yourself in the foot. A very early Civil Service is only desirable if you already have the capital for it, have the cottages, library and preferably academy set up. Also, you need Writing for CoL and Maths for CS so a GM will first bulb Alpha and Currency anyway. I'd say avoiding BW until Alpha so that you can trade for it is a realistic scenario on some maps (but definitely not all of them).

Raphs_Sai said:

Also, cities that have reached the happy cap can just focus on producing Settlers/Workers.

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Sure, but that's less effective than whipping them with a granary.

Won a monarch game with Justinian once by skipping BW and bulbing feudalism/guilds with Engineers, then whipping out an army of cataphracts by around 0AD. A pretty exceptional scenario (very few forests in my vicinity, 2 gold grass pigs start, access to stone), but honestly I don't think I could have won that much faster taking early BW.

Phate said:

Won a monarch game with Justinian once by skipping BW and bulbing feudalism/guilds with Engineers, then whipping out an army of cataphracts by around 0AD. A pretty exceptional scenario (very few forests in my vicinity, 2 gold grass pigs start, access to stone), but honestly I don't think I could have won that much faster taking early BW.

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Sounds interesting. Given that non-GS Great People bulb 2/3 the beakers that GSs provide, I'd be interested in the map size and how much of Feudalism and Guilds you were able to bulb. Great idea using Justinian I for this; with the right promotions Cataphracts would really rock with spies to Support City Revolts.

How were the two Great Engineers generated? Since Bronze Working is avoided, there is no possibility of working an Engineer (no Forge). The GE points must be from The Pyramids and/or The Hanging Gardens, right? It must have taken a while, since Justinian I is not Philosophical. GS bulbing Philosophy for Pacifism will not make this much easier, since the two GEs will cost 200 and 300 GPPs rather than 100 and 200 GPPs, but the GPPpt is doubled by Pacifism so that is a significant net gain. Was the National Epic built to increase the GPPpt rate? We are left with hiring other specialists to hasten the two GEs, but that also pollutes the gene pool, so this really isn't a good option.

Avoiding Bronze Working in this case does seem quite beneficial, assuming one can generate the two Great Engineers in time. I have little doubt that this could work on Monach difficulty level. I'm wondering whether it can work on Deity level.

Thank you very much for pointing out your win with Justinian I. Do believe it helps the case for this strategy. I'm also very interested in any strategies that will allow Justinian I access to Guilds much earlier than any AI can access Engineering (Pikemen) or Guilds (Knights).

Sun Tzu Wu

After bulbing Feudalism with a GE, one presumbly must trade for Bronze Working and Metal Casting and maybe even Machinery, before Guilds can bulbed. If not, one can bulb Machinery with the GE instead of Guilds, if one has not yet started researching Machinery.

Sun Tzu Wu

Hmm... I enjoyed reading this little... "debate"... This discussion can be easily avoided by simply playing to maximize what you get from your cities.

I guess if the map has no forests, or no health resources... (strange map altogether, maybe archipelago or a map full of jungle) such that chopping is out of the question. And sufficient green mines to saturate the food resources available... such that whipping is not absolutely a must in any of the cities you can profitably settle... Then, in such a map you can skip BW - a tech that is for most maps a game changing tech, to be compared with Writing, Alpha or Currency. (that is, it allows a clear conversion mechanism between a pair of the three: food, hammers, commerce)

No, this is not a good strategy at all. In starts where you have tons of food and littler production, you need BW for the whip. In opposite starts - where you have tons of production and not as much food as you'd like - often you're surrounded by forests, and you'll want to do some chopping. BW is a key early tech in any game, no matter what.

noto2 said:

No, this is not a good strategy at all. In starts where you have tons of food and littler production, you need BW for the whip. In opposite starts - where you have tons of production and not as much food as you'd like - often you're surrounded by forests, and you'll want to do some chopping. BW is a key early tech in any game, no matter what.

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I disagree. Never say always do this (research Bronze Working early), unless you can mathematically prove that doing so is always best. Avoiding Bronze Working does make sense in a minority of starts that are both low food (whipping can not be leveraged) and low forests (forest chopping can not be leveraged). There are also strategies where saving forests, i.e. to build forest preserves for National Park can be more beneficial that chopping them early; this would match a Space Colony Victory quite well.

Feel free to state your opinion that Bronze Working early is best for ~99% of all starts (in my opinion its probably at best good for at most ~94% of all maps), but please do not claim 100%, unless you have proof for such an assertion. Your claim that Bronze Working early is good for two broad categories of starts is correct. Claiming these categories are exclusive of each other (if a map is not the first it is the other) and together cover all possible maps (oops, you missed the category of low food and low forest maps) is incorrect.

Sun Tzu Wu

noto2 said:

No, this is not a good strategy at all. In starts where you have tons of food and littler production, you need BW for the whip. In opposite starts - where you have tons of production and not as much food as you'd like - often you're surrounded by forests, and you'll want to do some chopping. BW is a key early tech in any game, no matter what.

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Not to mention in settings where you have lots of production, not too much excess food and no forest you might still prioritize BW because you want metal, or you want MC for forges etc etc.

UnforcedError said:

Not to mention in settings where you have lots of production, not too much excess food and no forest you might still prioritize BW because you want metal, or you want MC for forges etc etc.

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Absolutely agree that there are no absolute strategy rules for winning one's chosen victory condition. I agree that one may still want to pursue Bronze Working to locate Copper or complete the BW prerequsite for Iron Working to locate Iron or as a prequisite to Metal Casting. All strategies are situational (map and AI dependent) and are usually based on incomplete information.

What can not be condoned is applying strategies 100% of the time, unless a strategy can be proven to be superior 100% of the time. Thus, one should not always research Bronze Working early on 100% of all maps, unless one can prove that it will always result in an earlier victory.

What does one do with low food, low forests and low production starts? Probably not early Bronze Working, right? What should be done in this case may depedent on whether one has high or low commerce and whether the commerce plot improvements require Hunting, Mining or Calendar.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu said:

I disagree. Never say always do this (research Bronze Working early), unless you can mathematically prove that doing so is always best. Avoiding Bronze Working does make sense in a minority of starts that are both low food (whipping can not be leveraged) and low forests (forest chopping can not be leveraged). There are also strategies where saving forests, i.e. to build forest preserves for National Park can be more beneficial that chopping them early; this would match a Space Colony Victory quite well.

Feel free to state your opinion that Bronze Working early is best for ~99% of all starts (in my opinion its probably at best good for at most ~94% of all maps), but please do not claim 100%, unless you have proof for such an assertion. Your claim that Bronze Working early is good for two broad categories of starts is correct. Claiming these categories are exclusive of each other (if a map is not the first it is the other) and together cover all possible maps (oops, you missed the category of low food and low forest maps) is incorrect.

Sun Tzu Wu

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I'm not saying BW should be researched within the first 3 techs every game, but it should probably be within the first 10 techs every game. Yes, I'm going to stand by that, 100% of the time you should have BW within your first 10 techs, and probably 50% of the time in your first 3 techs. Ignoring it for bulbing purposes is just ridiculous.

Sun Tzu Wu said:

What does one do with low food, low forests and low production starts? Probably not early Bronze Working, right? What should be done in this case may depedent on whether one has high or low commerce and whether the commerce plot improvements require Hunting, Mining or Calendar.

Sun Tzu Wu

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Low food and low production and low forest starts? I've never seen one, and I've played over a thousand games easily, maybe even two thousand.

I once traded for BW after researching alphabet. This was a crazy start with 2 gold and a gem in the capital's BFC. Second city needed Animal Lovin' as I recall. That kind of a path is rare enough. I cannot imagine the absurd bulbing tactics described herein as ever being useful.

To his credit, OP was a gentleman who argued his case well. He was also wrong.

noto2 said:

I'm not saying BW should be researched within the first 3 techs every game, but it should probably be within the first 10 techs every game. Yes, I'm going to stand by that, 100% of the time you should have BW within your first 10 techs, and probably 50% of the time in your first 3 techs. Ignoring it for bulbing purposes is just ridiculous.

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Going out on a different limb now? What is the point of your complicated formula? Is one allowed to trade/steal Bronze Working and still meet your first 10 Technolgies mandate. The problem is still your insistance that 100% of all games must meet your new requirement to be (presumbly) optimally played.

It only takes a single map played avoiding Bronze Working until at least the 11th Technology acquired with an earlier win date for any victory condition to disprove your conjecture above.

Bronze Working: "Ignoring it for bulbing purposes is ridiculous." Ridiculing the strategy will prove nothing as many posters before you have tried and failed to convince anyone except possibly themselves. Excellent players have tried to prove similar points via playing games and have failed to conclusively prove anything. Stating a conjecture without any proof is even less convincing.

Sun Tzu Wu

Abegweit said:

To his credit, OP was a gentleman who argued his case well. He was also wrong.

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Correction: It is your opinion he is wrong. Where is your proof that the strategy fails for 100% of all maps?

Sun Tzu Wu

I think this thread is much talk over nothing, sure you can not tech BW and wait until it's available for trade, then decide how fast you really need it after checking bulb paths. You can do that with several techs..
The whole purpose here was making some wind, as this would very very rarely be useful when considering all aspects of the game, but has been presented like it's more common.