Too Much Western Art

Thank you for the original poster and Dennis' response. It's not so much so a matter of forced equality but the immersion breaking nature of this unfortunate (but understandable) slant towards western art.
 
I thought the art was fairly balanced. You have to understand that Civilization is a product and the the US and Europe are probably the biggest markets for it. Also, there will always be a cultural bias when developers make a game. It's very common. Civilization series is one of the more culturally balanced games in the video game market, IMO.
 
I thought the art was fairly balanced. You have to understand that Civilization is a product and the the US and Europe are probably the biggest markets for it. Also, there will always be a cultural bias when a developers make a game. It's very common. Civilization series is one of the more culturally balanced games in the video game market, IMO.

It's totally understandable - though I sort of see great works under BNW as a learning opportunity for art, music and literature of global significance that I am not familiar with as well.
 
I think it has far too few Indian Subcontinent civs. Only India. So unfortunate, this bias towards Europe/America/Asia/Pacific.
 
The only thing I really wish was more modern day arts, music and writings also got on the list. Why is it turn 1984 and I have not received Orsen Welles as a great writer? Or Elvis Presely as a great musician? What about giving anime, video game creators or directors the great artist tag for late game?

All in all though, it's a fun mechanic and I am fine listening to the mountain king snippet over and over again because it wont affect my core gameplay.
 
Anglo-Saxon world is maybe over represented. There are many unknown (at least to me) American and English artists, musicians/composers and writers. When I think of great musicians, writers or painters I dont really think Americans or English. French, Germans and Russians have much higher amount of great people in these fields IMO.


Uh, you sure about that one? I get the musicians and painters, but writers? I feel compelled to make a list, but perhaps I can just say Shakespeare and leave it at that.
 
Uh, you sure about that one? I get the musicians and painters, but writers? I feel compelled to make a list, but perhaps I can just say Shakespeare and leave it at that.

I don't think I get musicians either. I don't know how much 20th or 21st century music is NOT influenced to some degree by blues or jazz.
 
The only thing I really wish was more modern day arts, music and writings also got on the list. Why is it turn 1984 and I have not received Orsen Welles as a great writer? Or Elvis Presely as a great musician? What about giving anime, video game creators or directors the great artist tag for late game?

Copyright and legal issues. The devs have said basically nothing from the past 100 years can be included. It's not totally followed for some of the obscure people, but the cost for even a 5 second clip of Elvis or the Beatles would make it near-impossible.
 
I don't think I get musicians either. I don't know how much 20th or 21st century music is NOT influenced to some degree by blues or jazz.

I was talking in the context of this game. They can only use art that is older than 100 years.

I have to agree that I was probably wrong about English literature. They did have some excellent writers.
 
Nothing in copyright - and I think there are legal minefields other than that to including a person who's alive (if they haven't given permission, which usually requires payment0
 
While diversity is nice, I'm not a fan of forced equality, either. While the game is still Eurocentric, let's not pretend that every culture outside Europe has had equal output throughout history.

We're discussing a video game, which is just a big fancy version of "let's play pretend". The Civ games are not a historical simulator but use things in history as gameplay props and elements. When the series started out, it was based around more iconic things like "The Pyramids" for a Wonder and "Gandhi" as a leader. As time goes on, more of these props and elements from different cultures are added. I think it's fair to ask for more elements from different cultures to mix, because people like playing pretend with different things. Especially if you're already close to 50 different civilizations to choose from.
 
To name just a few examples in each category for Native Americans:

Great Writer
Nezahualcoyotl (Aztec, Poet)
Francisco Hernández Arana Xajilá (Mayan, Historian)
Ah Bam (Mayan, Poet)
Pachacuti (currently the in-game Incan leader, but also a poet)
Sagoyewatha, aka Red Jacket (Iroquois, Orator)
Zitkala-Ša, (Dakota, Folklorist)
Luther Standing Bear, (Lakota, Memoirist)

Great Artist
Hasteen Klah (Navajo, Tapestry Weaver)
Atsidi Sani (Navajo, Silversmith)
Shaxʼsaani Kéekʼ, aka Jennie Thlunaut (Tlingit, Chilkat Weaver)
Matȟó Wanáȟtake, aka Kicking Bear (Lakota, Painter)
Da.a Xiigang, aka Charles Edenshaw (Haida, Sculptor)
Nakapenkem, aka Mungo Martin (Kwakwaka'wakw, Sculptor / Painter)

Great Musicians
Judy Trejo (Shoshone, Singer)
Walker Calhoun (Cherokee, Singer)
Pteskawin, aka White Buffalo Calf Woman (Lakota, Composer of the Calumet Dance, which I can't find a good sample of at the moment)
Pukawiss (the mythic creator of the Hoop Dance)
There are a lot of other traditional dances that could be included as Great Music because of their cultural significance, but I'm a harder time picking people to associate with them. Trejo and Calhoun were chosen for preserving those songs; Pteskawin and Pukawiss were chosen for inventing theirs according to tradition. I'll probably have to do some digging to find someone for the Stomp Dance, the Crown Dance, and the Buffalo Dance, which would be the next three on my list.

In all the categories, just like the songs, I limited myself to people who invented, preserved, or particularly exemplified traditional art styles and who are known by name. There's a lot of art by regrettably unknown artists I would have loved to include, like this Mississippian copper plaque or the authors of the Popul Vuh or the Xajoj Tun. I also didn't include more recent Native artists continuing to expand and adapt Native artistic traditions, so we miss out on Sherman Alexie, Jerod Impichchaachaaha' Tate, and Roxanne Swentzell, among others
 
INDONESIA


I tried to limit myself to just one per great person type. These are three iconic legends of the Indonesian arts and culture.

All three have also made impact on foreign soil - including the USA, China and Europe - but obviously their biggest impact is throughout Southeast Asia.

There are many more great ancient, classical and medieval works, but many of the old talents don't have a name to match them so I couldn't include them.
 
(Also, I am related to Affandi so there shouldn't be any copyright troubles - just talk to me :lol:)

^^ But I promise 100% that is not why I included him. Ask any Indonesian and they will agree he is a truly one of the greatest artists
 
It's a Westy-lish Game.

Exploitation everywhere...

This is how it works.

And it's still a GAME.

You are absolutly right, the game could be more educational, if they would have added notes, that not every civilization and every kind of human being acts like a backstabbing politician civ leader.

Personally I think, civ 5 is really a bit to much on the West ( I was freaking out, when i saw the two buidlings circus (another exploitation) and opera house omg ...
 
They really could have used art from more countries here. Middle Eastern illustrations would have been nice. African art. Ancient Mayan reliefs. Etc.
 
Actually, both of you are wrong. Both cultures had lots of great artists in those periods. But one of you is familiar with one side and one of you is familiar with the other and both of you are dismissive of what you don't know.

This is why representing more cultures is a good thing. It makes people more aware of what other nations have achieved and makes them respect those nations more, instead of saying that their culture doesn't exist.

I'm Polish. I daresay I am more familiar (or at least should be) with Russian culture than with English culture. The fact is, before 1780s or so, there are no world-famous Russian writers, but there is a bunch of English ones.
 
I'm Polish. I daresay I am more familiar (or at least should be) with Russian culture than with English culture. The fact is, before 1780s or so, there are no world-famous Russian writers, but there is a bunch of English ones.

"World famous" is the mistake here. They don't have to be that, they have to be Great. World fame right now very tightly connected to success in the United States, since the US is the major cultural influence of our world and is the one that forms our taste.

I don't know why exactly you chose the 1870 as a cut off point. From a cursory internet search, Lermontov, Pushkin, Gogol all died before that. Some highly well known novels, like War and Peace, The idiot, Crime and Punishment, are all written before that date (admittedly by only a few years).
 
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