How does horse archer rush work?

I am at a loss at how to use the Keshik in my current game where I am playing as Genghis. I already rushed Roosevelt with 10 axes and captured Washington and New York. Researched Horseback Riding before Alphabet. Building Keshiks now but can't seem to put them into use. Don't they die horribly to spearmen? So what if I pillage their copper? They still have their spearmen.

I wish there could be some emulation of the historical Golden Horde sweeping through the continent. I didn't observe it in Civ3 either. Ignoring terrain movement cost doesn't seem to represent their skills and capabilities entirely.

if you pillage copper they can't build spears. keshiks eat archers for breakfast. keep in mind keshiks also get a first strike. keshiks are also excellent raiders so pillage lots of stuff. i usually pillage stuff with keshiks and then take the cities with sword/catapult (or if earlier just axes w/keshik support).

I know. What I meant was that even if I pillaged their copper, they would still have spearmen that they've built in their cities. That's if they don't have copper defended by spears, esp. on hills. They might have iron by then too.

If you rely on swords and cats it wouldn't be a horse-archer rush, would it?

No, I'm just saying that's how I usually play mongols. If you're going for a pure rush it's a bit more difficult since hbriding takes so long to research. Why not just bring along a few axes to take out his spears? Like I said: "or if earlier just axes w/keshiks for support"

True enough. But that would render the keshik a bit pointless except for pillaging. I'd use mainly the axes for attacking cities (most of which would have spearmen). I suppose they are meant to emulate the Mongols' ability to manuever and choose when and where to fight, but with roads spearmen can move two tiles too, which makes manuevering hard. Why not give them 3 moves as well? They deserve it.

You're missing the point of combat in Civ IV - use a combination of unit types for the desired effect. Swordsmen for the cities, horsemen for pillaging, etc.

I know that also. But a couple of times I've heard mention of horse archer rush and I'm wondering what that is like. I assume rush means using mainly one type of unit, like axe rush or cavalry rush. I've done the latter on Emperor, so it's not a noob trick, I would presume. Yup, I can see that pure rush with horse archer is difficult, though.

And I concede the Mongols did use siege engines. But their vast armies of horsemen, I think, would find little flattery in the game's depiction of Keshiks. 3 moves isn't unimaginable considering each Mongol horseman had 3 horses to use successively. And their war tactics were able to beat or at least scare off even spearmen. Adding a further bonus vs melee would be too much, though, so I am happy with 3 moves.

For now, I think i'll stick with pillaging. But why would I want to pillage land that's gonna be mine?

i've often choose Kublai as leader but i've never rushed only with keshik. Maybe it could be done if you research Horse Riding before BW but i don't think this strategy is used very much and after all Axemen with city raider promotion are cheaper and more effective.
I think the best way is using a combination of Axemen, keshik and catapults.

The Horse Archer rush, as with any strategy doesn't always work. You have to employ the right strategy in given the current situation.

The Horse Archer rush works well against a civ that does not have any spearmen. You can get away with it if they have just one source of copper that you can quickly cut off, and remeber, you don't have to destroy the mine to cut off their copper. If the mine is guarded by spearmen, just pillage the roads leading to the mine.

If you can't pillage the mine, or the road leading to the mine, then pillage the roads around the city that has the copper. This will ensure the other cities won't get the copper so you'll only have one city able to build spearmen. Bear in mind, if the city with the copper is on the coast, you may need a galleon to block coastal trading of the copper.)

Alright. Thanks for all the advice, people.

I think this topic is dead but if you think about it. Keshik is horse - archer. In the real battle a large amount of the troops would be sending in hails of arrows, the front collum would then devestate the spearmen or other troops while they are hiding. The idea was rush them so quick they won't even get in line. To serve these right they would need 3 movement points, with no terrian costs still, cheaper to produce - and - 2-3 first strikes, but that would be ridiclously overpowered, yet thats what they need.

No, they do not. You can quicly whipe an army of hource archers.
They only time I played Kenshik rash I finish with major problem of occupying a continent befor I discove writing.
That was Monarch dificulty game.

You got the idea there for a more realistic depiction. Maybe you shouldn't overrate horse archers in general, but I think it's quite stupid to have everyone able to build it. They are certainly not common to every classical army and need peculiar skills accessible only to certain peoples.

And the Keshik is the best of these. I think something should be able to counter them, so I am fine with them losing to spearmen. And maybe 3 moves is a bit too much for such an early unit. Why not, as you say give them 2 first strikes, plus 40% chance to withdraw (think Parthian retreat, and of course the Mongols maginified it immensely)? In this case, I don't think they should be cheaper, but they will be a lot more powerful and realistic. In exchange, remove the ignore terrain costs (since from accounts of Genghis' life I read Mongol horsemen were evidently NOT able to cross terrain like swamps easily). But since they were apparently very good at using terrain to their advantage, allow them to enjoy defensive bonuses?

Mongols should be a military powerhouse, and being stuck with an average UU never helped since the time of Civ3.

I too would like to know more about how to use this strategy. As Hendrikzoon has demonstrated in recent game of the month victories this strategy can result in large scores and fast wins. Look into recent GOTM postings by Grey_cardinal,Hendrikzoon and Deluche, their game save files have really good statistical information on units built and tech paths taken.

I have tried using this on Prince/normal speed and was able to easily defeat the closest neighboring civ, but found it hard to get much futher than that. What I need is someone to tell me the steps one should take to maximize the effectiveness of the strategy. From what I've seen it can be VERY effective if done early enough.

Thanks,

dampkring

Here's the page that has the game save postings I'm talking about:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/results/index.php?month=40002

Also, you may want to look in the GOTM forums for spoilers were people talk about their pre-game strategies...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=165

dampkring