Dutch walkthrough of Morocco and Civil War scenario

Elite Forces: Persia (Immortals), Japan (samurai/WWII and flavors their UA), WWII Germany
Mobilization: United States (any war), WWI Britain, WWI France, WWII Russia, Communist Chinese, WWI/WWII Germany
United Front: Russia, US (First Gulf War recipient, WWII giver), Britain (world wars), Greece (vs Persia),
Futurism:
Industrial Espionage: Definitely US and USSR. North Korea, Iran, Israel, India, Pakistan (nuclear programs)
Fortified Borders: Rome, China, Russia (Eastern Europe border states), France (Maginot Line), WWII Japan
Universal Healthcare:

Militarism: Rome, China, Japan, US (National Guard), Germany (not just in WWII)
Lightning Warfare: Definitely flavored by the blitzkrieg, but let's not forget Patton/Bradley (US), Montgomery (UK) and Rommel, who was NOT a Nazi. Or the old Cavalry charges of old, even if they're not covered here.
Police State: Russia (and satellites), WWII Germany, WWII Italy, modern China, North Korea, Iran, France (Reign of Terror), England (Cromwell's "monarchy"), Spain (Inquisition)
Nationalism: all nations, particularly all great powers
Third Alternative: Probably Mussolini
Total War: Rome (vs Carthage), US (vs Native Americans, vs Germany, vs Japan, late Civil War), WWII Germany, WWII Japan, Russia (vs Napoleon, vs WWII Germany), Mongols (vs any city that refused to capitulate), Huns (vs Rome)

Cult of Personality: pretty much every famous leader ever, honestly
Gunboat Diplomacy: UNITED STATES. See link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunboat_diplomacy
Clauswitz's Legacy: Obviously Germany (not just WWII), but also Russia (Great Patriotic War), US (Mexican War, World War II), Japan (vs Russia), Rome (vs Carthage), Chinese Civil War, Mongol invasions, Hun invasions, Islamic invasions, Spain (vs Aztecs/Incas)

A few stretches here, but OBVIOUSLY not just Nazi flavored. I dislike Prora just as much as the next guy, but I'm not going to mod it out of the game. I figure the designers had a reason for putting it in, and I respect their efforts. But I wanted to show that the Autocracy policies represent policies that MANY nations (and I've overlooked a lot of stuff here) have undertaken, including the US.

*EDIT*

I find Clauswitz's Legacy to be woefully misnamed, since the effect of the tenet can apply to events that happened long before his lifetime.

Gali said:

Futurism- Little to do with Nazi's

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Weren't most (or at least some of the most prominent) italian Futurists involved with fascism and its war discourse?

Mostly. There were also quite a few Russians and Portuguese that bought into it.

Or so wikipedia says.

http://www.gamer.nl/video/425593/thom-doorloopt-civilization-v-brave-new-world
In this video, if you listen to the music during the start of the turn, it's music that has not yet been heard before. (or I believe so.) If anyone would like to dissect the song and find out what it is, that would be great.
Discuss

Moderator Action: merged with other thread
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

WiseGreen said:

Weren't most (or at least some of the most prominent) italian Futurists involved with fascism and its war discourse?

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Indeed, Marinetti (one of the fathers of futurism) actually ended up joining Mussolini's efforts with the whole Futurism movement... And that helped, Futurism sort of showed how the new "Fast and Violent" world was becoming, and what could be done with that...

Marinetti is the most important founder. It was mostly Italian. Nazi aesthetic principles would rule them out as degenerate art (entartete Kunst).

On a non-ideological path, what is the song that is at the start of the Moroccan play through. It sounds like a new OST.

Hmmm... There's been a lot of new Cultured city states being added. Before it made sense in the context of them adding 2 new city states per type, but now it seems they've added 4 to cultured, although Kathmandu being made Religious suggests that there may be another that's been made religious. At this point, the only two left that could be changed like this are Bucharest (which we know are in the game, but we don't know their type) and Florence.

Is Bucharest particularly important religion wise?

Not that the city state account matters or affects anything, I'm just trying to get a feel for what they've done with the overall numbers.

damnyankees said:

I don't really think of the USSR as anything but an autocracy. And The Motherland Calls is specifically a statue made as a result of a massive war which was all about patriotic death and defending the homeland at the order of a tyrant. It's autocracy personified.

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Though the USSR was autocratic in practice you have to remember that they're not called government systems, they're called ideologies. It's about what your people believe in.

Elite Forces, Mobilization, Industrial Espionage, Fortified Borders, Militarism, Universal Healthcare, Police State, Third Alternative, Total War, Cult of Personality, and Gunboat Diplomacy: all generic terms. As many have pointed out, some of these could just as well apply to countries that have historically followed "Freedom" or "Order." With the possible exception of Industrial Espionage (a weird choice for Autocracy any way you slice it), they definitely all apply to the Nazis. Re: Universal Healthxare—Hitler hated the Bolsheviks, yes, but it's not called National Socialism for nothing. The Nazis built an extensive welfare state.

Futurism is Italian (and not necessarily Fascist); Lightning Warfare is German (it's a Western description of Nazi-era German military tactics; the term's never really been used in Germany). Clausewitz's Legacy is German, I guess, although it's a terrible name for a tenet, and seems like a bit of a slander on poor old Carl. I think Fall Clausewitz is the idea there, since it's a time-limited Götterdämmerung sort of thing, but I might just be projecting.

Gali said:

So you have Prora and Lightning Warfare as the only things that focus on the Nazis more than anything else. Remember just because something references Germany doesn't mean its always Nazi.

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On the contrary: we've got one Italian (arguably Fascist) tenet, one Nazi tenet, one German (arguably Nazi) tenet, and a Nazi Wonder. Nothing from Japan, nothing from Spain or Portugal, nothing from Argentina, Greece, or Brazil. It seems to me like an unnecessarily and extremely narrow equation of "Autocracy" with "Nazism." And yet it's a very positive vision of Nazism.

Falangism, Twenty-Seven Points, Corporatism, Estado Novo, "God, Fatherland, and Family," Blackshirts, Kokutai, Kamikaze—any of these could be a tenet or the inspiration for a tenet that would be neither generic nor explicitly bound to the Nazis. That would give players a chance to define an autocratic ideology for themselves that was more than just a friendly, genocide-less version of Nazism.

HemlockMartinis said:

I honestly can't think of a good potential Autocracy wonder to replace the awful choice of Prora, though. Other Nazi buildings are out for legal and moral reasons (which is why I'm surprised Prora got in in the first place) and it'd also be nice to have something less Germanic when Autocracy is already so close to Nazism. It's not right to play along with Autocracy's habit of co-opting existing national symbols, so Brandenburg Gate (which is otherwise the most mechanically appropriate) or Yasukuni Shrine would be out. Italian fascism didn't really produce any buildings worthy of the "wonder" title either -- unless you count the EUR, which doesn't feel grand or majestic enough to be in the same category of symbolism as the Kremlin or the Statue of Liberty.

I guess a good option might be the Valley of the Fallen from Francoist Spain, but I don't know enough about the era to know if that's politically insensitive or not.

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I think the Valley of the Fallen would be a better choice than Prora, and the Colosseo Quadrato in EUR would actually be great too. It's the best-known example of Fascist architecture (certainly more recognizable than Prora), and, unlike the Valley of the Fallen or anything the Nazis built, there's nothing especially controversial about it. It was actually built as a symbol and celebration of Fascism, it's still around today, it's not associated with genocide or slave labor or anything like that. That'd be my vote.

Ashbery76 said:

Holy hippy.The Commies of Russia and China killed 100 million of their own people and I do not see a policy reflecting that either.

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That's because mass murder isn't a policy or tenet of Communism. The Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China (to say nothing of, say, Democratic Kampuchea) experienced terrible, brutal governance at times in their history. So did the United States (remember slavery?) and the United Kingdom (e.g. the Bengal Famine of 1943, although there are of course zillions of older examples). Nowhere in the U.S. Constitution does it say "kill all the Indians!" (although it did say that slaves weren't people—whoops!), but we still did it.

Nazi ideology, on the other hand, explicitly enshrined racial superiority, racial exclusion, and racial violence among its tenets. Other fascist or quasi-fascist nations did not do so, or did not do so in the same manner or to the same extent. Italian Fascism, for instance, did espouse racial superiority, but rather than genocide, it encouraged run-of-the-mill European racism of the white-man's-burden variety—the new Rome would civilize Libya, Ethiopia, etc. rather than exterminate the natives. You can have an "Autocracy" ideology without tenets like the Final Solution or Slave Labor or Lebensraum. But you can't have a Nazi ideology without those things.

Menzies said:

Is Bucharest particularly important religion wise?

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According to Wikipedia it has some importance for the Orthodox Church:

Bucharest is the seat of the Patriarch of the Romanian Orthodox Church, one of the Eastern Orthodox churches in communion with the Patriarch of Constantinople, and also of its subdivisions, the Metropolis of Muntenia and Dobrudja and the Archbishopric of Bucharest. Orthodox believers consider Demetrius of Thessaloniki to be the patron saint of the city.

The city is a center for other religious organizations in Romania, including the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Bucharest.

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Modern Romania is a very religious country, but I'm no expert on religious history in the region or anything. I guess it's plausible for it be changed to a religious CS.

The video is not here anymore (error 404). Does anybody know where can we watch it know?

Rob (R8XFT) said:

might be some other pieces of info in here, might not - but it is a different video, so you never know!

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Obviously I didn't realise just how much info there was in the video !

Rob (R8XFT) said:

One thing I noticed was that there was the Mausoleum of Maussollos; there was the Temple of Artemis in another playthrough, so either these guys have the ancient wonders DLC or it's included in BNW.

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I've mentioned this in a couple of threads and no-one else seems to have commented on it. Does anyone know what's happening here? Perhaps these builds just had those wonders added?

Menzies said:

Is Bucharest particularly important religion wise?

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Here is the "Light of Orthodoxy" procession in Bucharest - perhaps this and its other connections to the Orthodox church make it sway towards being a religious city-state in the game.

FedorWin said:

The video is not here anymore (error 404). Does anybody know where can we watch it know?

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I downloaded it, but I'm not sure about the legality of uploading it anywhere.

Rob (R8XFT) said:

I've mentioned this in a couple of threads and no-one else seems to have commented on it. Does anyone know what's happening here? Perhaps these builds just had those wonders added?

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I don't understand why people are still beating this dead horse. The wonders are in the BNW tech tree, Statue of Zeus is unlocked by the Honor policy tree and the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus is on the poster Firaxis has been giving away. It's quite obvious they are including the wonders in BNW.

Giskler said:

According to Wikipedia it has some importance for the Orthodox Church:

Modern Romania is a very religious country, but I'm no expert on religious history in the region or anything. I guess it's plausible for it be changed to a religious CS.

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No, no. Bucharest, being the capital of Romania, of course is the religious center of the country, but it has no religious relevance outside it. It has never been a particularly important religious center.

Of course, in the game Bucharest represents the entirety of Romania, but even then, assigning it as religious would be an enormous stretch.

Modern Romania is not a very religious country, I don't know where you got that idea. It is on par with most of the countries around, maybe a bit more religious than Western European countries, one the other hand certainly less religious than the US.

Giskler said:

I don't understand why people are still beating this dead horse. The wonders are in the BNW tech tree, Statue of Zeus is unlocked by the Honor policy tree and the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus is on the poster Firaxis has been giving away. It's quite obvious they are including the wonders in BNW.

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Excuse me, but I wasn't aware of it. It wasn't obvious to me; I hadn't come across that information. There really isn't any need to suggest I'm "beating this dead horse" - it's not as if I'm asking if Poland's in the game.

The QC said:

Modern Romania is not a very religious country, I don't know where you got that idea. It is on par with most of the countries around, maybe a bit more religious than Western European countries, one the other hand certainly less religious than the US.

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Romania is a secular state, but it's population is overwhelmingly religious and is among the most religious populations in Europe. It is certainly not on par with most countries around it, it's in fact quite above the average in Europe.

Rob (R8XFT) said:

Excuse me, but I wasn't aware of it. It wasn't obvious to me; I hadn't come across that information. There really isn't any need to suggest I'm "beating this dead horse" - it's not as if I'm asking if Poland's in the game.

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Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as hostile, it's just that this keeps coming up all time even though it's been adressed several times. I guess not everyone reads the forum as much as I do

Giskler said:

Romania is a secular state, but it's population is overwhelmingly religious and is among the most religious populations in Europe. It is certainly not on par with most countries around it, it's in fact quite above the average in Europe.

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Care to provide any source for that?