Lack of Early Game Gold is...OUCH.

Hey folks -

I'm a couple games in, and I've come to the conclusion that lack of early game gold is really REALLY painful if you plan on having any units early on. Early unit maintenance KILLS Civs other than Germany and the Zulu, even civilian units (early free Great General from Honor, for instance).

In my first game, I didn't realize right away where the spare early trade routes were (I in no way needed Sailing, for instance). I quickly started bleeding gold as I tried to deal with the now rampaging barbarians by spawning a few warriors (hard building a warrior and buying another used to be more than enough to deal with Barbs - now I can't afford to do either easily). When I finally got a trade route set up with my neighboring city state, it was immediately pillaged by barbarians that had surrounded the city state I sent my caravan to (their military units decided - for whatever god awful reason - to follow my warrior after it had cleaned up a nearby camp). I didn't have enough military units to protect my caravans BECAUSE I COULDN'T AFFORD THEM. For the first time in my Civ career, my treasury went negative and cost my science.

I'm a fan of the changes, and I eventually turned that game around. Still, even after my second game now, I can't shake the feeling that unit maintenance is a little high in the early game with the new mechanics, particularly since even civilian units cost maintenance. This seems like a carry over from the old Civ5 economy that wasn't necessarily thought through.

How will Monty ever be able to afford a Jaguar rush ever again? And god help anyone who gets a 1 luxury start (I am infamous for my all jungle, one gem starts). The new economic system seems to destroy chances for an early war.

How do you feel about the lack of early game funds? What are your opinions on early game unit maintenance? What is your strategy for ramping up early game gold now?

Haven't had a chance to really get into the game yet, but so far I like it. G&K it was all about science. With gold more difficult to come by, it introduces another element to the game. I find myself prioritizing trade routes and markets over universities--something which never happened in G&K. Hell, some games I wouldn't get around to gold tech buildings until after Industrial.

Also haven't experience the Ideology and city-flipping mechanics yet, but sounds like that may make happiness/culture more important as well.

In other words, I think making gold more difficult to come by was a necessary fix to get away from the science-rules-everything mentality from G&K. Not that science isn't important, of course, just a bit more balanced.

The only concern is early wars and early UU's. Won't be much fun if you can never train and use early units.

I haven't played yet, but what about internal trade routes, possibly to a luxury/gold-oriented city of yours?

Lord Shadow said:

I haven't played yet, but what about internal trade routes, possibly to a luxury/gold-oriented city of yours?

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I'm talking the first few turns of the game. You only get +3 gold at the beginning of the game from your palace, unless your luxuries are inside your first ring of tiles and workable for growth. Also, internal trade routes don't create money (just routes with city states and other civs).

Even if I had spawned a settler that early in the game, he would have cost me unit maintenance and would need protection from barbarians by military units - military units that I also couldn't afford. Bad accounting (or bad luck) in the early game hurts very, very bad.

Having finally a few games under my belt, I can echo your sentiments. Trying to be an early warmonger is just so brutal on the unit maintenance cost. I was constantly negative gold/science until I managed to capture some neighbors cities and got them running. Maybe if honor had a maintenance cost reduction for military units on the opener, I think that would be good.

+1 gold per embassy helps at first.

What's so funny about this (from my perspective) is that every game I've played, I was never able to exploit any of the gold-making techniques that people used (selling lux for gold, etc) so I actually didn't notice any difference in gold production this go around... I had gotten so used to it I didn't even bother trying to work the system, I just built my strategy around being gold-starved in the beginning of the game... Makes me glad for the reduced aggresiveness from the AI!

bcaiko said:

How do you feel about the lack of early game funds? What are your opinions on early game unit maintenance? What is your strategy for ramping up early game gold now?

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You must adapt or you will perish. I found that getting an early worker is key, my GnK builds failed ealry game. Improve resources as soon as possible to get the gold for unit upkeep. Then trade them to AI for gpt for even more gold.

Works for me but i haven't had a really bad start yet. If u end up with one luxury you are pretty screwed.

Lord Shadow said:

I haven't played yet, but what about internal trade routes, possibly to a luxury/gold-oriented city of yours?

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Internals are only good for food and hammers, and then only when you have the right buildings.

I played a random map as Morocco, and got a big pangea map where literally nothing was around for miles and miles. No civs', no CS's. In previous games, this is something of a wet dream. In this game, it was horrifying. I had incense and silk nearby, and plantations are still good for gold, but my main thing was raiding all the barb camps that spawned incessantly without any neighbors to share the load of patrolling.

hug4 said:

You must adapt or you will perish. I found that getting an early worker is key, my GnK builds failed ealry game. Improve resources as soon as possible to get the gold for unit upkeep. Then trade them to AI for gpt for even more gold.

Works for me but i haven't had a really bad start yet. If u end up with one luxury you are pretty screwed.

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Shaking down a CS is certainly a more appealing tactic than before.

I'm also a fan of this change. It makes things more local in the early game and actually makes certain wonders like The Mausoleum of Halicarnassus relevant. Early war is still completely doable too.

I have had pretty good luck producing gold locally with some investment and normal trade routes (roads). There IS an early game gold shortage, but I have been playing a lot of Civ IV: C2C mod which has taught me to live with just that.

Being gold starved just means everyone is going to have to make sacrifices on the way to acheiving early goals. If you're 1 city NC rushing then you wont be able to hold onto more then a few units to defend with. Early Aggression with 2-3 cities means you'll have to avoid building many of the buildings you normally would; libraries/granaries/monuments in exchange for units with the loss of science compensated with a few trade routes to neighbours you aren't intending to attack.

Basically until you can get some really solid Naval trade routes up, you'll have to make decisions on whats more necessary for the immediate goal.

I don't build trade routes very early and when I do, I usually like to ship food to my cap first.

AIs are much more willing to DoF. Obviously, those guys you can sell a lux directly for 240 (or strategics @ 45g a piece). To supplement that, I sold luxuries to non-friends at 6 GPT and, in the same turn, asked my friend for 180g for 6 GPT. Essentially the same as selling it straight up for 180g. I did this for everything and I have no early gold issues (assuming I have some neighbors) and I'm am able to rush buy things I need.

The early AI ATM machines still exist; There's just an extra step in translating GPT to lump sum. Deity AI will have tons and tons of cash too.

e: And offer your embassy for 1 GPT and then get 30 gold from your "friend" for that 1 GPT.

bcaiko said:

Hey folks -

I'm a couple games in, and I've come to the conclusion that lack of early game gold is really REALLY painful if you plan on having any units early on. Early unit maintenance KILLS Civs other than Germany and the Zulu, even civilian units (early free Great General from Honor, for instance).

Click to expand...

If you've got early units, go and bully city-states. I'm going to play Assyria for my next game to test this gold limitation, because I've seen it raised a few times.

I haven't really had this problem. In my first game I played as Babylon took Tradition and stayed at four cities forever.

In my second game I took Arabia.

I think you either expanding too fast ie recklessly or the Civ you selected is not producing the amount of money you would like. If you can't maintain positive cashflow your business plan is flawed.

As a long time fan of Arabia in Civ 5, I welcome our new superior trade caravans, fancy markets, and increased religion spreading. And I think I'll just buy all the friends I need to pass whatever I want in the World Congress and UN.

"Trust in Allah, but tie your camel."
Arab proverb.

I also think Morrocco may be where it is at out of the new Civs, originally I was thinking Assyria would be my fav, but having seen the importance of trade routes and the super defensive unit they get, they may rival Arabs, Dutch, and Venice in trading.

steveg700 said:

Internals are only good for food and hammers, and then only when you have the right buildings.

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Yes; the internal routes are only food and hammer boosters; but they can be levered to produce gold:

More Food -> faster growth -> more city connection gold

More Hammers -> faster buildings -> If leveraged for food buildings like the Granary see above. Or if leveraged for market places even more directly increases gold.

And the beauty of it is in 30 turns if it looks like an external route would now be better, you can switch to that.

I make a couple friends.. sell em lux's for 5 gpt, sell the gpt for cash. Rinse and repeat.. And I steal my neighbors workers.

hug4 said:

You must adapt or you will perish. I found that getting an early worker is key, my GnK builds failed ealry game. Improve resources as soon as possible to get the gold for unit upkeep. Then trade them to AI for gpt for even more gold.

Works for me but i haven't had a really bad start yet. If u end up with one luxury you are pretty screwed.

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That is very true. I just simply wait till I get a map that allows me a good start then go after capitals and raz anything else. grab Cs that have resources you don't have, avoiding any overlap in resources to keep your gold and happiness positive.

It is a different style of gameplay that makes the early part of the game boring and late game interesting. Which is the exact complete polar opposite of G&K.

Muskie said:

I think you either expanding too fast ie recklessly or the Civ you selected is not producing the amount of money you would like. If you can't maintain positive cashflow your business plan is flawed.

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This is an excellent statement. You simply cannot go into a game with this many fundamental changes without adjusting your strategy. BNW has changed the game even more than G&K did. It sounds to me like the players who approached their first games with a clear understanding of the implications of the changes to gold revenues adjusted their game play to compensate with good results.

I decided to drop two levels -- to King -- so I could fiddle with the new game features. I played Poland on a Pangea Plus map. Igot a scout out first to find other civs and CSs and I researched animal husbandry first to get a caravan out ASAP. The esrly strategy worked as I was able to get started with a positive cash flow. I then prioritized getting a second city on the coast and researching sailing to get cargo ships. I had elephants in my area, so I got camps up and running, and traded with other civs as I found them. I was only able to get a DOF fom one civ early on. From it, I was able to get the usual 240 gold for the ivory. From the other civs, which remained neutral, I was able to get 5-6 gpt, which is not too bad.

Overall, it is certainly possible to get a good cash flow, but you certainly cannot play as you had been with vanilla or G&K and expect to have the same success. As someone else said, adapt or perish.