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Old Jul 05, 2012, 08:12 AM   #41
Mesix
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Originally Posted by Adjuvant View Post
Yeh, those are great, they just come at the expense of alot of gold, happiness and growth, not to mention a far more substantial capitol and wonder production.
Tradition and Liberty are not mutually exclusive. You can take both policy trees. In my experience, Liberty helps with early building and Expansion more than Tradition. I often fill up both trees because I like them both. I just prefer to fill up Liberty first and find that there really isn't much downside to Liberty for any civ.
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 08:15 AM   #42
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Aristocracy has 1 happiness in 10 pop any city and additional 50% capitol population happiness bonus with monarchy, that's 6 happiness from a population 10 capitol, when getting the same happiness from meritocracy requires 5 size 4 secondary cities and trade routes.

If you have that, why would you waste policiy choices mulling back over liberty?

edit: why not aim the right side of commerce or fill order quicker?

further edit: THEN people are talking about how much better war is, but then in the same breath talk about the great little buildings. Well I'll tell you, you're not going to be making and paying for great little buildings WHILE you're making and paying maintenance on an army. A little of both maybe, but nothing super for both. Choose one. Then all those cities need libraries, aqueducts, culture buildings... oh and don't forget extra workers to build all your roads.

Last edited by Adjuvant; Jul 05, 2012 at 08:28 AM.
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 08:39 AM   #43
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If you are going to grow beyond one city, at some point you have to take Liberty. This tree represents freedom for your people instead of despotism. There is a big happiness boost in this tree if you are running 3 or 4 tall cities, not to mention the reduced costs of future social policies and a wildcard GP.
Check this out.

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Originally Posted by Adjuvant View Post
Aristocracy has 1 happiness in 10 pop any city and additional 50% capitol population happiness bonus with monarchy, that's 6 happiness from a population 10 capitol, when getting the same happiness from meritocracy requires 5 size 4 secondary cities and trade routes.

If you have that, why would you waste policiy choices mulling back over liberty?
Because you won't have 6 cities but 20 cities and oversized capital won't help you when you hit -20 unhappiness?

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edit: why not aim the right side of commerce or fill order quicker?
Are you talking about ancient era start?

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further edit: THEN people are talking about how much better war is, but then in the same breath talk about the great little buildings. Well I'll tell you, you're not going to be making and paying for great little buildings WHILE you're making and paying maintenance on an army. A little of both maybe, but nothing super for both. Choose one. Then all those cities need libraries, aqueducts, culture buildings... oh and don't forget extra workers to build all your roads.
Yeah... You totally lost me...
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 08:58 AM   #44
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Hi Pilgrim.

I see it. He is running 20 turn culture on turn 190. His 6 cities are getting tall and he only has +5 happiness right now. If every city grew by 1 point, it would wipe out his happiness. If he had 3 picks in Liberty, he would gain buckets of happiness. But he can’t get that for at least 60 turns right now. He is threatened with stagnation.
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 09:08 AM   #45
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Liberty is now also the best for an early wonder rush(apart from being eqypt). The +1 hammer per city equals about a +25% production boost at this early stage. Better than the 15% tradition can provide.

If going liberty i sometimes open tradition before completing liberty - without it i feel my borders is almost not growing at all.. and then your also just one click away from exploiting legalism.
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 09:37 AM   #46
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Hi Pilgrim.

I see it. He is running 20 turn culture on turn 190. His 6 cities are getting tall and he only has +5 happiness right now. If every city grew by 1 point, it would wipe out his happiness. If he had 3 picks in Liberty, he would gain buckets of happiness. But he can’t get that for at least 60 turns right now. He is threatened with stagnation.
Well, he'll finish the game in 60 turns.
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 09:40 AM   #47
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Well, he'll finish the game in 60 turns.
What exactly is he trying to do? It looks like he just hit the industrial era.
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 10:02 AM   #48
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http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpo...0&postcount=86

Bulbing party works pretty much the same it did in vanilla, if you have high enough bpt.
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 10:10 AM   #49
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http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpo...0&postcount=86

Bulbing party works pretty much the same it did in vanilla, if you have high enough bpt.
Thats pretty cool, but I am addicted to CPT rather than BPT.
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 10:17 AM   #50
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The person who said honor still sucks is not factoring in the tall and puppet strategy. With garrison and defense buildings you can produce insane amounts of happiness in your core cities. Considering thta puppets love to spame defensive buildings thats another major source of happiness. Add in some culture from barbs and caste and a useful bonus in discipline and thats a really nice tree. GO the other way and production bonus and free early gg. He's still useful then and you can use your first generated to culture bomb some useful tiles. Then more exp which can make your units stronger sooner and finisher can provide great gold. Certainlt a useful tree.
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 10:25 AM   #51
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I have never, ever, on the biggest map, felt compelled or even interested in "having 20 cities", unless you mean puppeted capitols but liberty doesn't help that, except +1 happiness for all connected cities, and puppets don't get the additional 5%.

I play a game every other, if not every day, now consistently winning on immortal difficulty, random civ, standard or large size, epic pace, in all victory conditions. There's no reason, aside from your own, to have more than 9 non-puppeted cities, and very often I work with fewer. I'll have 4-7 by 500 AD and the rest by 1400, and everything else gets puppeted or burnt.

I know I'm rambling... what I'm really saying is "what you're portraying" as "the option" for the "best reason" for liberty "doesn't exist" because it "doesn't matter".

Ancient age. Yes, I always start there.
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 10:31 AM   #52
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If I'm down to 6 happiness I don't "let" my cities grow one more. Swapping out tiles to production/specialists/income over food/growth for awhile isn't "stagnation". See, that's another thing... you don't need "5-7 size 20 cities" ever to win, either. It's handy sometimes, but it's not necessary. After awhile, you're just feeding people to keep them happy and the "science income" you might argue is probably "overkill".
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 11:39 AM   #53
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Adjuvant, I'm sorry, but this isn't going anywhere. Can you get to the point and articulate what exactly do you mean by all this? That tradition is better in any situation? For massive conquest? I'm trying to understand, I really do, but no luck so far.
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 11:45 AM   #54
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The person who said honor still sucks is not factoring in the tall and puppet strategy. With garrison and defense buildings you can produce insane amounts of happiness in your core cities. Considering thta puppets love to spame defensive buildings thats another major source of happiness. Add in some culture from barbs and caste and a useful bonus in discipline and thats a really nice tree. GO the other way and production bonus and free early gg. He's still useful then and you can use your first generated to culture bomb some useful tiles. Then more exp which can make your units stronger sooner and finisher can provide great gold. Certainlt a useful tree.
How much is insane? Number of defense buildings is finite, as you know, and not that high to begin with. +1 garrison. More XP is cool, I agree, the rest are less so. If Organized Religion in Piety hasn't changed, it will give you more happiness than two policies in Honor.
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