War Weariness

45°38'N-13°47'E · Aug 12, 2014

I've increased war weariness in rev782; just tell me how it goes now, possibly in a new game. Actually, I've just decreased or removed some modifiers which were greatly reducing war weariness. For example, playing on a Gigantic map reduced WW by 85% :eek:

and that's insane. To keep things balanced, WW has been increased more for humans than for AI (on higher levels). Let me know how it goes.

JosEPh_II · Aug 12, 2014

Would you be so kind as to post where the changes were made?

thanks

JosEPh

Afforess · Aug 12, 2014

JosEPh_II said:
Would you be so kind as to post where the changes were made?

thanks

JosEPh

I was curious too, so I checked. Here are the specific changes.

World size no longer reduces war weariness. All Difficulty levels had war weariness handicaps decreased slightly. Base war weariness was increased.

I think it might be overkill. I am inclined to agree with JosEPh that war weariness needs to be tweaked very carefully. At the very least, we should examine the results of these changes in tests.

45°38'N-13°47'E · Aug 12, 2014

War weariness doesn't change for sizes, exactly. Well, it actually changes for smaller maps but I don't see the point of reducing WW to 15% on a big map. I also think we need to test, we can change these values if they prove to be too high. But to tell the truth, I'm not sure they're too high. Until now, WW was simply not existent.

Rezca · Aug 12, 2014

What modifiers were removed/tweaked? I know that there were a lot of things in the game that dialed back on WW and it wasn't exactly painful or anything to run them. In base BTS if a war was proving to be painful back at home, you'd build some Jails and Mount Rushmore. If it kept getting worse (Dragging on longer than expected, for example) then you had to switch into the military police civic to cut back on it more. Chances are this might not have been what you wanted to be doing.

After that, it fell to the culture slider - which would in turn damage your income and research.

JosEPh_II · Aug 12, 2014

Afforess said:
I was curious too, so I checked. Here are the specific changes.

World size no longer reduces war weariness. All Difficulty levels had war weariness handicaps decreased slightly. Base war weariness was increased.

I think it might be overkill. I am inclined to agree with JosEPh that war weariness needs to be tweaked very carefully. At the very least, we should examine the results of these changes in tests.

Thanks for the link.

My purpose for even posting was to warn that other mods have went thru this too and to maybe learn from their experiences.

Increasing base WW modifier from 3 to 5 will show up in a protracted war. And agreed testing will be needed. And those testing will need to play with it for awhile before they make an assessment. Plus giving plenty of details about that particular game. Not just blanket statements or it sux or it's great. And different map types need to be tried. A pangea/Lakes Map will playout differently than an Archipelago, Island, or Custom Continent w/continent for each AI (plus or minus extra continents). GEMs will also be very different play than these others mentioned. Just things remembered from the WW discussion days in C2C.

@45*,
Do you remember if any of this came from C2C? I now most of the things Imported from C2C were mostly AI related. But there was a reason for the -85% on Giant or Gigantic in C2C. Distance traveled to war came into effect rather quickly.

JosEPh

Dancing Hoskuld · Aug 12, 2014

JosEPh_II said:
@45*,
Do you remember if any of this came from C2C? I now most of the things Imported from C2C were mostly AI related. But there was a reason for the -85% on Giant or Gigantic in C2C. Distance traveled to war came into effect rather quickly.

JosEPh

Having no change for map size will make problems especially for the AI players unless you have fixed some of their behaviour. The AI has a bad habit of declaring war on nations that are far away and not moving towards that nation with their stacks until after declaring war. This will mean that on larger maps they will be crippled by WW before they even get into a fight.

val3 · Aug 12, 2014

Dancing Hoskuld said:
Having no change for map size will make problems especially for the AI players unless you have fixed some of their behaviour. The AI has a bad habit of declaring war on nations that are far away and not moving towards that nation with their stacks until after declaring war. This will mean that on larger maps they will be crippled by WW before they even get into a fight.

If my memory does not fail me WW didn't increased when you simple in war state but doing nothing. It increased when you kill units, get units killed, invade/lose cities etc.
When you have no fight WW only decreases.
So, I think, it is not the problem.

45°38'N-13°47'E · Aug 12, 2014

There's no point in my opinion to scale by mapsize. We should scale on gamespeed instead. You should have the same war weariness for a 100 years war, be it a 25 turns on blitz speed or a 200 turns on eternity. This is the whole point of gamespeed.

Edit: anyway we can always revert changes if needed, it's a very easy change. But anyway reducing WW to 15% on a gigantic map seems still to little to me.

nionios · Aug 12, 2014

val3 said:
If my memory does not fail me WW didn't increased when you simple in war state but doing nothing. It increased when you kill units, get units killed, invade/lose cities etc.
When you have no fight WW only decreases.
So, I think, it is not the problem.

Are you sure about this?Can someone else confirm this?

val3 · Aug 12, 2014

nionios said:
Are you sure about this?Can someone else confirm this?

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/war_weariness.php

How it worked in BTS.
I doubt that there were cardinal changes, but one can look at code, of course.

45°38'N-13°47'E · Aug 12, 2014

JosEPh_II said:
@45*,
Do you remember if any of this came from C2C? I now most of the things Imported from C2C were mostly AI related. But there was a reason for the -85% on Giant or Gigantic in C2C. Distance traveled to war came into effect rather quickly.

JosEPh

Definetely those vaules aren't coming from C2C; in AND 1.76 they were already like that and I bet they were like that from beginning. Don't you think that with all the changes we had in 3-4 years it may be time to properly balance these values? Even if they were balanced at the beginning (which I don't think, I suppose they were just "scaled up" when mapsizes larger than huge were introduced), they are not balanced anymore. My changes are just a test; now I'm curious to see if someone is reporting too much war weariness.

Just out of curiosity: how many of you ever had real troubles with WW? I never had in the last 3 years at least, probably more. And when I say troubles, I mean troubles that you can't solve with buildings, civics or culture.

45°38'N-13°47'E · Aug 12, 2014

val3 said:
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/war_weariness.php

How it worked in BTS.
I doubt that there were cardinal changes, but one can look at code, of course.

Mmmm, thank you for that link val3; code looks the same at first glance (I haven't checked). And that explains why WW is scaled by mapsize, so it might be correct to reintroduce this kind of scaling (although scaling should be changed IMO). That's because on a bigger map you have more units and hence WW will increase more when you fight. I'll do some more testing and I'll reintroduce WW scaled by mapsize.

val3 · Aug 12, 2014

45°38'N-13°47'E;13387026 said:
And that explains why WW is scaled by mapsize, so it might be correct to reintroduce this kind of scaling (although scaling should be changed IMO).

Yes. I thought you know. I thought if i say it to you, you will answer something like
"but independently of map size civs usially have the same size most part of the game, you only have more civs on bigger maps" ( and it has sense).

P.S. All articles in
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/game_mechanics

i think must read.

JosEPh_II · Aug 13, 2014

val3 said:
If my memory does not fail me WW didn't increased when you simple in war state but doing nothing. It increased when you kill units, get units killed, invade/lose cities etc.
When you have no fight WW only decreases.
So, I think, it is not the problem.

You are partially right, but I think Dancing Hoskuld knows what he's talking about Val. Listen to what he's saying. He has been building mods here at CFC before Zappara created Rise of Mankind. He's also currently in charge of C2C while strategyonly heals up.

JosEPh

JosEPh_II · Aug 13, 2014

45°38'N-13°47'E;13387018 said:
Definetely those vaules aren't coming from C2C; in AND 1.76 they were already like that and I bet they were like that from beginning. Don't you think that with all the changes we had in 3-4 years it may be time to properly balance these values? Even if they were balanced at the beginning (which I don't think, I suppose they were just "scaled up" when mapsizes larger than huge were introduced), they are not balanced anymore. My changes are just a test; now I'm curious to see if someone is reporting too much war weariness.

Just out of curiosity: how many of you ever had real troubles with WW? I never had in the last 3 years at least, probably more. And when I say troubles, I mean troubles that you can't solve with buildings, civics or culture.

I have no trouble with re-balancing, you always do a good job in that regard. Just wanted to warn that too much will cause significant problems. I, personally, would like WW to disappear completely. I don't have a use for it at all and, like City Limits, feel it's totally redundant. But that's just my own opinion.

JosEPh

Rezca · Aug 13, 2014

JosEPh_II said:
I have no trouble with re-balancing, you always do a good job in that regard. Just wanted to warn that too much will cause significant problems. I, personally, would like WW to disappear completely. I don't have a use for it at all and, like City Limits, feel it's totally redundant. But that's just my own opinion.

JosEPh

Removing the mechanic entirely? That's going a touch too far in my opinion. The 'Hardly even there' state it's in right now is already bad enough.

BTS WW could get out of hand quickly on high difficulties, but the concept itself wasn't bad. It just decayed too slowly to be useful, and it ramped up faster by taking cities than losing units in combat for some reason.

Personally, I don't want to see it go away. It has its flaws, but it's not absolutely terrible.

Afforess · Aug 13, 2014

I would be staunchly opposed to removing War Weariness. It is one of the few mechanics that discourages perpetual warfare.

As an aside:

JosEPh_II said:
You are partially right, but I think Dancing Hoskuld knows what he's talking about Val. Listen to what he's saying. He has been building mods here at CFC before Zappara created Rise of Mankind. He's also currently in charge of C2C while strategyonly heals up.

JosEPh

This is a logical fallacy, there is no particular reason DH would know more (or less) than val3. For example, while I am one of the more senior members here, I until only recently learned how the civic free units and unit costs mechanic works. Seniority does not imply wisdom or knowledge. Every members opinion should be judged on its merits alone, not by the character of the author.

<Nexus> · Aug 14, 2014

OFF:
I am watching (at the moment) The Big Bang Theory. This last post of Afforess reminds me of Sheldon Cooper. :lol:

JosEPh_II · Aug 14, 2014

Afforess said:
I would be staunchly opposed to removing War Weariness. It is one of the few mechanics that discourages perpetual warfare.

As an aside:

This is a logical fallacy, there is no particular reason DH would know more (or less) than val3. For example, while I am one of the more senior members here, I until only recently learned how the civic free units and unit costs mechanic works. Seniority does not imply wisdom or knowledge. Every members opinion should be judged on its merits alone, not by the character of the author.

@Afforess
The only logical fallacy is not knowing val3's level of modding knowledge. I've been working with DH for many years and he does know what he's talking about on WW. val3's post came across as dismissive to what DH posted. Which is proven fact from much testing of WW, that we did together in C2C by the way. Much testing.

@rezca,
The last part of my post stated "But that's just my own opinion". And that I think it's "redundant" which does not mean "terrible". Did you perhaps skip that part?

JosEPh

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